T Nation

What do you guys think?

http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pentagone/erreurs_en.htm

… me I’m not sure …

If the government lied about this crash (or whatever caused the damage), what else have they been lying about??

A LOT more than you think, I’m sure. Should make you think abit about the people in charge! Are the worthy being reelected?

Old conspiracy theory. It’s been proven false a loooooong time ago. I don’t have a link handy, but I’ll try to find one.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.htm

Common sense. The plane hit at about a 30-40 degree left wing down attitude like the one that hit the first WTC tower. That explains the shape and orientation of the damage.

Other overhead shots show a groove in the ground where the wing tip was disintegrating as the plane approached, also evidence it wasn’t in a level flight attitude as it impacted.

The one that hit solid ground in PA was witnessed going in intact and was literally destroyed, just like the Pentagon plane was. The Pentagon wall that was hit was beefed up prior to the hit, the windows themselves were $13,000 each, and were bitched about at the time.

Example. Bug hits windshield. Think about that a while.

I’d like to know why Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld said he didn’t know America was under attack, until after an airplane struck the Penatgon? This was about 90 minutes after the first plane hit the World Trade Center. After all, he is the #1 person in charge of defending the country.

Maybe he was on the crapper all that time, and couldn’t hear his phone ringing? He was meditating? Listening to a book-on-tape? In the middle of a Very Important Meeting and he couldn’t be interrupted? Just trying to figure out HOW he could NOT know that America was being attacked, until a plane hit the actual building he was sitting in…

Poor Donald. Other than his boss, he’s the last one to find out about anything.

Id like to know why Bill Clinton didnt take Osama Bin Laden when he was offered him.

Holy shit, Lumpy, you’re stupid. I got a note in class saying the twin towers had been hit by two planes and I thought it was a misunderstanding. I thought surely the the message was written wrong. Freak accident, a plane hit the World Trade Center, sure. You expect that anyone thought we were under attack after the first plane hit?

i was in class too when it happened and my econ teacher just told us a plane crashed into the building and everyone pretty much assumed it was an accident, then he rolled the tv out and we were watching as the second plane crashed. by then anyone with common sense knew it wasn’t an accident.

the authenticity of the crash at the pentagon doesn’t really matter in the whole scheme of things, at least in my opinion.

LOL Yeah, you’re right Doogie. Rumsfeld probably thought it was a prank phone call, and went back to reading the newspaper.

Goldberg
Why did the Army surround bin Laden at Tora Bora, and then let him escape? He was airlifted out.

Gee, I know the news from Iraq has been incredibly bad lately, but try to live in the 21st century if possible. Bill Clinton is still the most important person in George Bush’s administration, because the whiney babies can’t stand on their own 2 feet.

I hope they keep that Donald Rumsfeld clown around for a few more months, he is an albatross and dead weight around George Bush’s neck. That way, we can fire them all simultaneously.

“Goldberg
Why did the Army surround bin Laden at Tora Bora, and then let him escape? He was airlifted out.”

BWAAAAA-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!! And you were given this exciting little tidbit of “factual” info exactly . . . WHERE??? (This should be good). :slight_smile:

Lumpy,

That story comes from Debka, not exactly a mainstream news source:

“Like the Drudge Report, which it resembles, Debkafile clearly reports with a point of view; the site is unabashedly in the hawkish camp of Israeli politics and has partnered with the far-right news site WorldNetDaily for a weekly, $120 subscription product.”

"Offered in Hebrew and English, Debkafile offers a blend of anonymous tips, unsubstantiated rumors and chilling, detail-laden stories on Middle Eastern military, intelligence, diplomatic, and terrorist matters.

“There’s so much confusion, so many parts of the story, and so much we don’t know that you’ve got to be aware of unusual sources like Debka,” said Sreenath Sreenivasan, a new media professor at Columbia University’s School of Journalism.

From www.wired.com/news/conflict/0,2100,47325,00.html

Lumpy,

You wrote, “Goldberg,
Why did the Army surround bin Laden at Tora Bora, and then let him escape? He was airlifted out.”

Then you posted a link (from Debka, which is, at best, considered to be a veeeeery dubious source, even by those on the Right, despite the fact that it’s quite hawkish and right-leaning generally. At worst, it’s considered pure fiction. Probably a bit closer to the latter).

Did you even READ the article that YOU YOURSELF posted?? True or not, it asserts that Bin Laden was never even IN Tora Bora at the time the US laid seige to that complex. It claims that the few Al Qaeda fighters who were there were just a DIVERSION. It claims that US military leaders then had to sheepishly explain to Rumsfeld that many of Al Qaeda’s leaders had escaped.

Even IF - IF - this article is accurate, it does not in your WILDEST DREAMS describe a scenario in which the US Army “surrounded Bin Laden at Tora Bora, and then let him escape.” Additionally, even if the airlifts that the article describes DID take place, the article does not claim that Bin Laden himself was actually airlifted out – just that a number of Al Qaeda fighters were, and that the POSSIBILITY of him being flown out exists.

On a more common sense-related note, I find it waaaaaay beyond impossible to believe that the US did not have complete and utter knowledge of every single piece of aircraft, fixed wing or rotary, that flew into, out of, within or around Afghanistan at the time, by way of satellite surveillance, radar, AWACS planes, Global Hawks, etc. So please first decide which fantastically fictitious claim you’d like to back: (1.) That the US wasn’t aware of a big, multi-day airlift going on from A’stan to P’stan at the time, or (2.) That the US somehow allowed it and/or looked the other (despite the fact that the article alludes to the US military leaders “having to explain” – i.e. being a bit embarrassed about the fact – to Rumsfeld how Binnie and the boys might’ve gotten away. Your call. Please first remove head from ass.

Another case of throwing a whole lot of shit against the wall and hoping that some of it will stick . . . :slight_smile:

I never said that the US airlifted bin Laden out of Tora Boara, like the White House did with the bin Laden family on September 12. I only said that the Army let them escape, because Bush was unwilling to dedicate additional troops.

You guys crack me up. When I post a link to a website, people here usually say it’s too left wing to take it seriously as a source. Now you’re saying my link is too right wing. Why don’t you get off your lazy asses and do some research of your own? The administration let bin Laden get away, and this is what US MILITARY sources say. Do your own research, ya lazy sack!!! You think there are no other corroborating sources for that story? Maybe Rush Limbaugh and FOX doesn’t cover ALL your news requirements?

As far as choosing between incompetence versus lying on this issue, isn’t that the exact same story we hear from the White House time and time again?

I never EVER thought of the CIA or the US military as being grossly incompetent, but after the excuses made by the Bush administration after every crisis, I have to say I have my doubts…

9-11: Fuck up or cover up?
Prisoner torture: Fuckup or coverup?
No WMDs actually in Iraq: Fuckup or coverup?
Bin Laden escapes: Fuckup or coverup?
Underestimating the price, timetable, and troops required in Iraq: Fuckup or coverup?
Ignoring the warning memo on August 6th: Fuckup or coverup?

It goes on and on. In the Pass-the-Buck “it aint MY fault, I’m only the Boss” Bush adminstration, how can you be sure?

All I can say is that I’m liking Donald “Albatross” Rumsfeld more and more, and I hope he will stick around.

“The initial stages of the war in Afghanistan were superbly executed, especially the airstrikes that destroyed the Taliban on the ground,” says Mr. Heyman, the British editor of Jane’s World Armies, a London-based military analysis publication. “But after that, there were never enough forces on the ground. And if you don’t have enough forces on the ground, you can’t dictate events on the ground. That is one of the reasons so many escaped.”

Gee, I hope Janes is enough of a “credible source” for you guys. LOL

Here’s Donald Rumsfeld, basking in the warm glow of his own incompetence in Tora Bora.

“Al Qaeda has also taken a lesson from the last few months,” says Heyman at Jane’s World Armies. “It is unlikely that we will ever see such a concentrated Al Qaeda force, as we saw in Tora Bora, again.”

Lumpy,

Let’s start simnple here. You said, referring to Bin Laden, that, “he was airlifted out.” Provide ONE SHRED of evidence of that! Even your OWN article, the Debka article, does NOT make that claim. WORDS MEAN THINGS, LUMPY! So you have ZERO evidence that Osama Bin Laden was airlifted out of Afghanistan at the time of the Tora Bora seige. Agreed?

Secondly, Jane’s is an EXTREMELY reputable source of information. Debka is NOT. ScottL explained to you in excruciating detail WHY Debka is not respectable as a source of info. If you’ve forgotten it, go re-read his thread, i.e. do YOUR fucking research. ALL sources are anonymous, ALL authors are anonymous, and what’s written there could therefore VERY WELL be COMPLETELY made up, and much of it probably is. I DO read it from time to time – for entertainment value. They do tell interesting “tales.”

NO ONE, least of all me, would argue that the US military didn’t fuck up with both the Tora Bora operation and Operation Anaconda – not enough US (read “trustworthy” and “capable”) troops were used, and many enemy fighters, POSSIBLY including Bin Laden, escaped.

HOWEVER, in illustration of your own sloppiness of thinking, you claimed that the Army did, “surround Bin Laden at Tora Bora.” The Debka article that YOU POSTED, and YOU ARE CLAIMING IS WORTHY OF OUR BELIEF, clearly states that Bin Laden was NOT at Tora Bora at the time, but that Tora Bora was a DIVERSION by Al Qaeda. WORDS MEAN THINGS, LUMPY!!! DID WE OR DID WE NOT “SURROUND BIN LADEN AT TORA BORA??!” YOU make the call as to which claim you want to make NOW!

It’s not even WORTH yet getting into whether or not all the other (mainly Iraq-related and 9/11-related) things were the Bush administration’s fault or not, although I personally think, and pretty much always thought, that Iraq was a bad move. My point is that we can’t even DELVE into that large and broad a discussion with you yet, since you can’t keep even the most SIMPLE of claims and/or facts STRAIGHT – NOT EVEN ACCORDING TO YOUR OWN SOURCES!!! So let’s start with this as question number one: Do you or do you not claim that we SURROUNDED BIN LADEN at Tora Bora?

Lumpy,

Lumpy said, “Goldberg
Why did the Army surround bin Laden at Tora Bora, and then let him escape? He was airlifted out.”

Then Lumpy went on to say, “I never said that the US airlifted bin Laden out of Tora Boara”

Ok, is anyone else confused? Ideologues frighten me.

JeffR,

Yes, I’m quite sure that line of his confused a lot of people. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt in one respect, though, and assume that he didn’t mean to infer that the US airlifted him out (although it damn sure came across that way), but rather that someone else did. Even STILL, the VERY ARTICLE that HE is using as HIS source for that claim, DOES NOT MAKE THAT CLAIM! NOWHERE in the article does it claim that OSAMA was airlifted out – only that a number of Al Qaeda people were. AND - let’s remember - it’s Debka, so even THAT claim is dubious at best.