T Nation

What Did You Learn In School?

Yep. That pretty much sums it up.

Maybe he should quit bitching and homeschool then. Oh yeah, now that they’ve got power in school libs are trying to make that illegal. Now we have to send our kids to school to learn that war is never okay, that guns are bad and that socialism and covert racism is the answer. My kids are going to 1/2 day private school then getting homeschooled.

mike

[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
Maybe he should quit bitching and homeschool then. Oh yeah, now that they’ve got power in school libs are trying to make that illegal. Now we have to send our kids to school to learn that war is never okay, that guns are bad and that socialism and covert racism is the answer. My kids are going to 1/2 day private school then getting homeschooled.

mike[/quote]

I have talked to many parents I know about this issue and they just seem oblivious to the idea of homeschool. These are people who consider themselves conservative. They actually think it is a good idea having the values of the state pushed on their children.

I’ll be damned if my kids get taught that America’s warmongers are heroes.

Why do you think they’re oblivious to home schooling? I’m with you.

Perish the thought that any kid be exposed to an idea his parents haven’t first vetoed.

Holy fucking shit. Do you read yourselves? What kind of stupid retarded brats are you going to send into society, that have never heard a concept you don’t fully agree with?

Teach your kids to think for themselves; teach them your values and why you value them. Teach them to love a lot and hate not. Teach them to respect others and themselves; teach them to stand up for what they think is right. Don’t teach them what to think, or what you think.

Don’t seclude them in your house so that you can brainwash them with what little doesn’t scare you. There’s a whole giant world out there, let them partake in it. The good and the bad. The ugly and the wonderful. The best of it and the worst of it.

I’ll be damn glad if one day my kids challenge me on a topic and they’re able to support their views intelligently and knowingly. I’ll know I did my job correctly.

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
Why do you think they’re oblivious to home schooling? I’m with you.[/quote]

I think there are many reasons for it. One of the biggest reasons being that they are easily manipulated to believe that homeschooling is far less “superior” compared to established institutions. The institutions that push this idea do not like competition of ideas. God forbid your child did not worship Lincoln!

An other problem I see is that many parents want their children to be educated and they think there is some overall, correct formula that needs to be followed to accomplish it. They see education as a tangible good to be had upon some formalized matriculation ceremony and not as a lifelong process. The idea that a piece of paper prepares someone for real life (what education essentially should be) is preposterous.

The people I know who are prejudiced against the idea of homeschooling are also distrusting of “overeducated”, pedigreed individuals – which I think is a healthy outlook but also a contradiction to the overall ideas they believe.

[quote]pookie wrote:
I’ll be damn glad if one day my kids challenge me on a topic and they’re able to support their views intelligently and knowingly. I’ll know I did my job correctly.

[/quote]

Yes, I agree with this idea but American public schools (at least the ones I went to) do not teach critical thinking skills. It is virtually impossible to engage in dialog or disagree with a public school teacher. They are right by virtue of authority. One cannot teach their child to be cautious of authority while at the same time sending them into its lair where they are challenged by its bite – it is a recipe for disaster.

My idea of education is travel and exposure to as many of the different things the world has to offer. By time a child is old enough to effectively challenge ideas – which I will indeed teach my own to do – it is too late to teach critical thinking. That must come first and foremost. Of course, those are my own prejudices – prejudices I would not force on your children.

One of the benefits of public (or private if you prefer) schools is there are plenty of other people for the students to interact with. I’ll be the first to tell you, if I was homeschooled I would be a weaker speaker and debater, shy, and probably unwilling to challange people.

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:
if I was homeschooled I would be a weaker speaker and debater, shy, and probably unwilling to challange people.[/quote]

Or you would quietly go about your business not caring what other people think realizing that words are wasted on the uneducated.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
if I was homeschooled I would be a weaker speaker and debater, shy, and probably unwilling to challange people.

Or you would quietly go about your business not caring what other people think realizing that words are wasted on the uneducated.[/quote]

that version of the public schools died about 1964 when he was singing his song. Out with the pledge … out with singing the anthem … out with any Christmas celebration … in with Kwanza … In with America sucks.

When I was in school from about the 4th grade on … all my teachers were unreconstructed hippies. About the same time Bill Ayers started indoctrinating undergrads at U of I in fact.

We learned that Americans are killing babies and when they’re not killing babies they’re killing mother earth.

I need to put that into a little folk tune and sing it with a banjo.

In fact from about the fourth grade right through 4 years of college, at least 80% of my teachers weren’t just democrats but full blown radicals.

I sat through a survey of greek literature at my “conservative” southern university and learned from my 30 year old lesbian prof that the only thing worth taking away from 500 years of Greek thought was that Plato was a woman hater.

All the girls in class knew how to play her so they’d come prepared with little passages from The Republic … “Professor doesn’t this passage here demonstrate how misogynistic Plato was?” She’d eat it up and we’d all sit and laugh.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
pookie wrote:
I’ll be damn glad if one day my kids challenge me on a topic and they’re able to support their views intelligently and knowingly. I’ll know I did my job correctly.

Yes, I agree with this idea but American public schools (at least the ones I went to) do not teach critical thinking skills. It is virtually impossible to engage in dialog or disagree with a public school teacher. They are right by virtue of authority. One cannot teach their child to be cautious of authority while at the same time sending them into its lair where they are challenged by its bite – it is a recipe for disaster.

My idea of education is travel and exposure to as many of the different things the world has to offer. By time a child is old enough to effectively challenge ideas – which I will indeed teach my own to do – it is too late to teach critical thinking. That must come first and foremost. Of course, those are my own prejudices – prejudices I would not force on your children.[/quote]

I don’t think the job of elementary education should include any type of “critical thinking”. That is a waste of tax money.

It should be spent on the “Three R’s”. Critical thinking is absolutely worthless if all you have to bring to the fight is a 2nd grade reading level, the inability to put thoughts to paper in a coherent manner, and an inability to count without using your fingers.

There are kids graduating high school who aren’t smart enough to form a coherent thought, much less think critically.

Critical thinking is something for the parents to teach.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
pookie wrote:
I’ll be damn glad if one day my kids challenge me on a topic and they’re able to support their views intelligently and knowingly. I’ll know I did my job correctly.

Yes, I agree with this idea but American public schools (at least the ones I went to) do not teach critical thinking skills. It is virtually impossible to engage in dialog or disagree with a public school teacher. They are right by virtue of authority. One cannot teach their child to be cautious of authority while at the same time sending them into its lair where they are challenged by its bite – it is a recipe for disaster.

My idea of education is travel and exposure to as many of the different things the world has to offer. By time a child is old enough to effectively challenge ideas – which I will indeed teach my own to do – it is too late to teach critical thinking. That must come first and foremost. Of course, those are my own prejudices – prejudices I would not force on your children.

I don’t think the job of elementary education should include any type of “critical thinking”. That is a waste of tax money.

It should be spent on the “Three R’s”. Critical thinking is absolutely worthless if all you have to bring to the fight is a 2nd grade reading level, the inability to put thoughts to paper in a coherent manner, and an inability to count without using your fingers.

There are kids graduating high school who aren’t smart enough to form a coherent thought, much less think critically.

Critical thinking is something for the parents to teach.
[/quote]

I agree 100%. It is like anything else in life, you need to master the basics. These kids can’t even spell basic words anymore. They are too busy text messaging.

It’s only going to get worse.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Critical thinking is something for the parents to teach.
[/quote]

The basic skills of critical thinking need to be learned earlier than HS. By time HS rolls around the child should not only be able to read and write at an young-adult level but also be able to form a basic argument and recognize a logical fallacy.

There are people that post on this forum that can’t even do that.

Throw out all that other fluff like history, social studies, and the general science; that is a waste of time until a child learns basic critical thinking.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Critical thinking is something for the parents to teach.

The basic skills of critical thinking need to be learned earlier than HS. By time HS rolls around the child should not only be able to read and write at an young-adult level but also be able to form a basic argument and recognize a logical fallacy.

There are people that post on this forum that can’t even do that.
[/quote]

There are also people in this thread (you) who are too fucking stupid to know an argument if it slaps them in the face.

Look, kiddo - if you want to start a fucking internet fight - then do it. Stop dropping hints like a fucking pussy.

I seriously doubt anyone should be following your advice, or listening to your opinion on anything.

Who is stopping you from teaching your children critical thinking?

On one hand you bitch, moan and cry about the immorality that is public education, then you want them to teach your children critical thinking. Pick one side of the fucking fence, and stay on it. You are worse than a stray dog.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

There are people that post on this forum that can’t even do that.[/quote]

I know.

It’s like when someone argues that there is no such thing as a universal truth only to argue in their next breath that there are universal truths (like natural rights).

It’s pretty annoying.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

There are people that post on this forum that can’t even do that.

I know.

It’s like when someone argues that there is no such thing as a universal truth only to argue in their next breath that there are universal truths (like natural rights).

It’s pretty annoying.

[/quote]

True and morality are two separate things. But stil true relative…or absolute.

[quote]pookie wrote:
Perish the thought that any kid be exposed to an idea his parents haven’t first vetoed.

Holy fucking shit. Do you read yourselves? What kind of stupid retarded brats are you going to send into society, that have never heard a concept you don’t fully agree with?[/quote]

Since when did I say that I intended only to push my beliefs on my children? I’m a historian and if my studies have taught me anything, it’s that primary sources are your best friend. That way you can make up your mind for yourself. That said, I’m not sure what schools you went to, but there weren’t multiple sides of most issues taught at most of the public schools I went to. Take global warming in college science for example.[quote]

Teach your kids to think for themselves; teach them your values and why you value them. Teach them to love a lot and hate not. Teach them to respect others and themselves; teach them to stand up for what they think is right. Don’t teach them what to think, or what you think.

Don’t seclude them in your house so that you can brainwash them with what little doesn’t scare you. There’s a whole giant world out there, let them partake in it. The good and the bad. The ugly and the wonderful. The best of it and the worst of it. [/quote]

Ignoring the obvious contradiction of your first paragraph I’ll forge ahead. Perhaps if you can get past your own
prejudice and hate you would be able to open your mind to the possibility that not all homeschooling is as narrow minded as you perceive. I intend actually to send my kids to a half day of private school, then a half day of homeschool.

My wife was both homeschooled and went to public school. She was constantly held back in public school out of fear of her standing out too much and making other kids feel bad. Since when was being given busy work a better education that her mother’s guidance in allowing my wife to explore her own interests?

Funny, such a poorly adjusted homeschooled child graduated high school with a 4.1 and became class president. She seemed well adjusted enough to become the president of College Republicans (though we’re no longer Republicans) for the whole state of Idaho. [quote]

I’ll be damn glad if one day my kids challenge me on a topic and they’re able to support their views intelligently and knowingly. I’ll know I did my job correctly.
[/quote]

So will I. Fortunately I’m confident enough that my beliefs are correct that I won’t need to indoctrinate my children for them to find my beliefs to be proper. I’m curious how happy you’ll be if your kids can support an argument to homeschool their own children.

Fucking Canadians. My children are not property of the state to indoctrinate in a manner prescribed by the villiage. I’d much rather they were FREE (a concept foreign to you socialists) to discover their own beliefs through critical thinking and self-exploration.

mike

[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
I’m curious how happy you’ll be if your kids can support an argument to homeschool their own children.[/quote]

I’ve got nothing against homeschooling. What pisses me off is when parents use it to shelter their kids from the world and indoctrinate them in their personal narrow view point.

If someone homeschools their kids and exposes them to as many ideas and view points as possible and helps them develop the ability to think critically, then kudos.

Cut the crap. Except for a few differences, our two countries are mostly alike. Living in Toronto differs very little from living in Boston… If you were to swap some farmer from Alberta with some rancher in Texas, I bet neither of them would have a hard time fitting in.

In fact, I’d be hard pressed to find a freedom you enjoy that I don’t.

[quote]pookie wrote:
In fact, I’d be hard pressed to find a freedom you enjoy that I don’t.
[/quote]

That is because freedom isn’t granted by government but rather taken away. Mikey just wants his children to learn that and not be subjected to the heavy hand of state propaganda that is part and parcel to state education.