T Nation

What Christians Don't Know About Israel

[quote]k.elkouhen wrote:
rainjack wrote:
The Palestinians, on the other hand have never had a home. They are the gypsies of the Middle East.

Pre-1948, Palestiniens had lived in a region that was called Palestine (Israel, West Bank and Gaza) for more than 2500 years.

Some Palestinians were nomadic Bedouins.

But others lived in cities, like Jerusalem or Gaza.

Of course, calling them landless gypsies does make the UN decision that created Israel a lot easier to defend.

[/quote]

Key in this statement is UN decision. Most specifically Britsh decision who controlled and possesed the land. It’s important to realize that this was not some unilateral invasion on the part of Israel. People forget that. What may be more more apt than what Rainjack said is that the Palestinians have never had their own nation-state. That is true. I think they are entitled to something which is why I support the West Bank moves.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
Let’s not confuse Israel not being blameless with Palestinian actions not being reprehensible. No country is totally in the right. I don’t see Israeli citizens bombing Palestinian buses with nominal if any condmenation from their leaders. They also gave back land. (and do not make statements about not being satisfied until Palestine is pushed into the othem cean). It’s as unrealistic to expect to give any more land up than they have as it is to expect us to remove ourselves from a couple States for the Indians to reclaim.

Exactly. Israel is not blameless, but they are not blowing up buses full of school kids.

The Palestinians need to renounce violence and terrorism ASAP. As soon as they do the world will turn on Israel and force them to end the second class citizen status. As long as I turn on the nighly news and see Hezbollah attacks on Israel, Israel looks like the better country and will continue to bnefit from our support.
[/quote]

Yup.

In any event there is certainly no harm in hearing “the other side of the story”. If you still want to support either side after the fact then all for the better I say. Perhaps I will take a look at her book to expand my perspective. JP I would also be interested in the name of the magazine which discusses these types of things, perhaps they have articles online or something?

V

[quote]Vegita wrote:
In any event there is certainly no harm in hearing “the other side of the story”. If you still want to support either side after the fact then all for the better I say. Perhaps I will take a look at her book to expand my perspective. JP I would also be interested in the name of the magazine which discusses these types of things, perhaps they have articles online or something?

V[/quote]

I will have to ask my mother in law the name - then I will get back to you.

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
Key in this statement is UN decision. Most specifically [sic!] Britsh decision who controlled and possesed the land.
[/quote]

Maybe you have forgotten the UN Declaration on the Independence of Colonial Countries which states that all peoples have a right to self-determination.

[quote]It’s important to realize that this was not some unilateral invasion on the part of Israel.
[/quote]

Ok, so it was an invasion that was based on a decision by a bunch of people that didn’t have the authority necessary to do so.

Is that really any better ?

[quote]k.elkouhen wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
Key in this statement is UN decision. Most specifically [sic!] Britsh decision who controlled and possesed the land.

Maybe you have forgotten the UN Declaration on the Independence of Colonial Countries which states that all peoples have a right to self-determination.

It’s important to realize that this was not some unilateral invasion on the part of Israel.

Ok, so it was an invasion that was based on a decision by a bunch of people that didn’t have the authority necessary to do so.

Is that really any better ?
[/quote]

You need a kidney transplant and a doctor procures a kidney for you through illegal means. Are you gonna turn it down?

[quote]k.elkouhen wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
Key in this statement is UN decision. Most specifically [sic!] Britsh decision who controlled and possesed the land.

Maybe you have forgotten the UN Declaration on the Independence of Colonial Countries which states that all peoples have a right to self-determination.

It’s important to realize that this was not some unilateral invasion on the part of Israel.

Ok, so it was an invasion that was based on a decision by a bunch of people that didn’t have the authority necessary to do so.

Is that really any better ?
[/quote]

No one ever has the authority to do anything. We didn’t have the authority to colonize America and displace those who were already here. The same can be said for almost every country in existence today. It was arguably wrong to carve out a homeland for Israel that necessitated displacing others. It’s no more right to displace them now. A compromise is what’s called for and a compromise is what’s been achieved. Maybe the Palestians deserved more land, but to me, they have almost forfeited their rights and rendered themselves highly unsympathetic through their mentality, terrorist actions, and wanton and reckless disregard for human life.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
Let’s not confuse Israel not being blameless with Palestinian actions not being reprehensible. No country is totally in the right. I don’t see Israeli citizens bombing Palestinian buses with nominal if any condmenation from their leaders. They also gave back land. (and do not make statements about not being satisfied until Palestine is pushed into the othem cean). It’s as unrealistic to expect to give any more land up than they have as it is to expect us to remove ourselves from a couple States for the Indians to reclaim.

Exactly. Israel is not blameless, but they are not blowing up buses full of school kids.

[/quote]

No, they’re just shooting school kids who throw rocks at them. I wouldn’t say the two sides are morally equivalent, but Israel is not some beautiful desert democracy under attack from vicious, irrational terrorists. It’s an appartheid state when it comes down to it, and one that takes us (America) to the cleaners ALL the time. They deserve their country, I’m not saying otherwise, but unless they compromise and give the Palestinians a viable state, they’re gonna be on the losing end of this one in time.

I agree completely.

It’s more of an imposed status quo.

I’m not sure Israel has much more respect for human life. But they have much better access to US and International media. Thay also are more media savy and they have a better understanding of western culture.

For the palestinians this whole problem is about injustice and hope.

Do palestinians have any hope in the international community ? The answer is to that question is no.

Palestinians would immediately abandon all terrorist acts if they thought for one moment that the international community could make sure that Israel:

  • would accept the 1968 borders, without the current patchwork of Israeli Colonies
  • would not interfere with the return of all Palestinian refugees.

Can the international community impose this on Israel ? Of course not.

Israel is a nuclear power and for that reason it can do whatever it chooses to and the International community will look the other way every single time.

The palestinians are fucked and they know it.

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
Let’s not confuse Israel not being blameless with Palestinian actions not being reprehensible. No country is totally in the right. I don’t see Israeli citizens bombing Palestinian buses with nominal if any condmenation from their leaders. They also gave back land. (and do not make statements about not being satisfied until Palestine is pushed into the othem cean). It’s as unrealistic to expect to give any more land up than they have as it is to expect us to remove ourselves from a couple States for the Indians to reclaim.

Exactly. Israel is not blameless, but they are not blowing up buses full of school kids.

No, they’re just shooting school kids who throw rocks at them. I wouldn’t say the two sides are morally equivalent, but Israel is not some beautiful desert democracy under attack from vicious, irrational terrorists. It’s an appartheid state when it comes down to it, and one that takes us (America) to the cleaners ALL the time. They deserve their country, I’m not saying otherwise, but unless they compromise and give the Palestinians a viable state, they’re gonna be on the losing end of this one in time.[/quote]

An excellent post on an interesting thread. I was brought up, by parents, church, and media, to believe Israel were the good guys, fighting back the Arab hordes, losing innocents to suicide bombers, in general, the victims.

The more I learn about the Palestinians, the more I came to understand their cause. I will never agree with the actions of Hamas and Hezbollah, but did you know that for every Israeli killed by Palestinian terrorism, 5 Palestinians are killed by the Israeli army? Are not those actions also terrorism? Or, because they are carried out by tanks and helicopters, legitimate acts of defense?

More questions spring to mind. Let’s say the Israeli authorites arrest and torture 10 Palestinians. If one of those Palestinians was a member of Hamas, organising a suicide bombing, and that suicide bombing was stopped, was that torture justified?

Did you know that if a Palestinian does a suicide bombing, the Israeli army will demolish the home of that person’s family? I used to think that this was fair. But what if the family were opposed to the actions commited by their family member? Or were ignorant of it?

If a camp was suspected of harboring potential terrorists, the Israeli army would crush it to the ground? Is this the best way to deal with that situation?

Don’t get me wrong. I am no apologist for Palestinian terrorism. I’m saddened by the suicide bombings, happy when Israel capture or kill known terrorists, but I don’t see how Israel can claim the moral high ground when they kill 4 or 5 times as many and there is no way all those are terrorists.

The only fair solution is for Palestine to be awarded statehood, pronto. They have as much right to existence as Israel. Of course, neither side will be happy with whatever territory they get, there may be border skirmishes or even war, but the present situation is untenable.

I’m all for Israel, and I’m not even remotely a christian.

If the choice is between a group of people who send mentally imbalanced people to blow themselves and a lot of innocents to hell and a group of people who shoot “kids” throwing rocks at them, I’m all for the the people shooting the rock throwers. If you don’t want your kid shot, don’t let him go out and chunk rocks at tanks.

I remember on 9/11 seeing footage of Palastinians dancing in the street and passing out candy. Fuck em. Democracy vs. fucking loons? The choice is easy for me.

[quote]k.elkouhen wrote:

Palestinians would immediately abandon all terrorist acts if they thought for one moment that the international community could make sure that Israel:

  • would accept the 1968 borders, without the current patchwork of Israeli Colonies
  • would not interfere with the return of all Palestinian refugees.

[/quote]

Liar. Palestinians will not be happy until every last Jew is dead.

[quote]deanosumo wrote:
I will never agree with the actions of Hamas and Hezbollah, but did you know that for every Israeli killed by Palestinian terrorism, 5 Palestinians are killed by the Israeli army? [/quote]

They should make it 500. Maybe then the madness will stop.

[quote]
More questions spring to mind. Let’s say the Israeli authorites arrest and torture 10 Palestinians. If one of those Palestinians was a member of Hamas, organising a suicide bombing, and that suicide bombing was stopped, was that torture justified?[/quote]

Yes. Palestinians aren’t turning in the terrorists.

[quote]
Did you know that if a Palestinian does a suicide bombing, the Israeli army will demolish the home of that person’s family? I used to think that this was fair. But what if the family were opposed to the actions commited by their family member? Or were ignorant of it?[/quote]

Should have been better parents. Shouldn’t have allowed their children to adopt a paradigm of hate.

[quote]
If a camp was suspected of harboring potential terrorists, the Israeli army would crush it to the ground? Is this the best way to deal with that situation?[/quote]

No. The best way would be for the palestinians to denounce terrorism and turn in those who commit it. Until then, yes, this is the best solution.

Yes, you are.

[quote]
The only fair solution is for Palestine to be awarded statehood, pronto. They have as much right to existence as Israel. [/quote]

Palestinians don’t want statehood. The want genocide.

If by border skirmishes, you mean palestinians will try to exterminate the jews, you are correct.

Doogie said, “I remember on 9/11 seeing footage of Palastinians dancing in the street and passing out candy. Fuck em. Democracy vs. fucking loons? The choice is easy for me.”

I saw this video too, but I later heard that it was actually footage from some other event…I am not sure.

As for the marriage of convenience between the Christian wackos and Isreal, Vanity Fair has a great article about it in this month’s issue. Check out American Rapture, by Criag Unger. It discusses how Tim Lehay (sp?) of the “Left Behind” series has spearheaded a rapture movement. Central to their beliefs of armageddon is that the Temple Mount will be restored to Isreal. At that point, a very Rambo-like Jesus comes back from heaven, and spills the blood of all of the unsaved. It is funny that in all of my years of Catholic school, college and church, I never heard all of this rapture talk. In fact, Jesus seemed pretty mellow - more of a turn-the-cheek kind of guy.

[quote]doogie wrote:
deanosumo wrote:

The only fair solution is for Palestine to be awarded statehood, pronto. They have as much right to existence as Israel.

Palestinians don’t want statehood. The want genocide.

[/quote]

So do more than a few extreme right-wing Israelis, and there are plenty of others who want ethnic cleansing, kicking the Palestinians out altogether.

This must be the feel-good thread of the year! My tummy feels all warm and fuzzy and tickly knowing that there are people looking forward to and collectively working towards Armageddon–just by shuttling a bunch of dudes and dudettes to the right departure terminal.

Yeah, I can see Jesus right now, wearing one of those spiffy flight attendant’s uniforms as He waits at the entrance to the boarding gate for Armageddon Airlines, saying, “Where are those Jewish virgins!?” while tapping His fingers on the passenger list.

Then, after giving His finely coiffed hair-do a little primp and aligning His nametag (marked rather conspicuously with the rank of “Son of God”) with the top of his jacket’s breast pocket, Jesus turns to look out the window at the plane, where Captain God is staring back at Him from the cockpit window as if to say, “Let’s get this show on the road, right?” In response, Jesus just shrugs his shoulders back at Him before turning back to face the still empty lounge before Him.

Yep. I really hope that’s how some Christians think of it.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/end_wrl16.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_isra.htm

deanosumo wrote:

then doogie wrote:

Pretty ironic considering that in a previous post doogie wrote:

[quote]rainjack wrote:

But wrt Israel - they are our only friend. The nation was built with mainly Jewish Americans. There is a relationship that extends beyond mere foreign policy. The Palestinians, on the other hand have never had a home. They are the gypsies of the Middle East.

Is Israel perfect? Harldy, but they are like the cousin living on the wrong side of the tracks - you love him to death, and would do anything for him - so sometimes he takes advantage of you.
[/quote]

Maybe you love them to death. But if he lit other people’s trailers on fire and tried to push everyone out of the trailer park, I would think twice about helping him.

Let me ask this question to all those who think it’s alright to kill 5, or 500, Palestinians for each Israeli.

Sure the Palestinians are using terror to fight the Israeli occupation of their perceived territory.
I do not condone the killing of innocent civilians, but what else are they supposed to do?
It’s not like they have an army or anything. Should they just accept it and take whatever scraps Israel is willing to give them?
I don’t imagine that many Americans in the same situation would be as passive as we are demanding Palestine be.

I’m interested in some opinions on this.

[quote]AZMojo wrote:
Let me ask this question to all those who think it’s alright to kill 5, or 500, Palestinians for each Israeli.

Sure the Palestinians are using terror to fight the Israeli occupation of their perceived territory.
I do not condone the killing of innocent civilians, but what else are they supposed to do?
It’s not like they have an army or anything. Should they just accept it and take whatever scraps Israel is willing to give them?
I don’t imagine that many Americans in the same situation would be as passive as we are demanding Palestine be.

I’m interested in some opinions on this.[/quote]

I wasn’t seriously suggesting they kill 500 random Palestinians every time a suicide bomber kills an Israeli citizen.