T Nation

What Are You Waiting For?

I’ve been lurking for a long time now, and this is my first post. I meant to post some pics on the latest “tattoos” thread that was going, but I never got around to it. Hey, but now that the ice is broken, maybe I’ll start posting.

Just wanted to say I am also a Vroom fan!

Vroom and all,

I am mainly a sponger too, I don’t think there is anything wrong with it, but I will say this forum has a lot of great information. If it weren’t for this forum I would have never really gotten my butt in gear and hit the gym and eat well. I have posted a few times on this site and have gotten some interesting info. Most of the time though the questions I do have are already answered when I search or carefully read posts. But all in all if there weren’t posters and just spongers these forums would be useless. So great post Vroom…

[quote]Professor X wrote:
The goal in life should never be to please everyone. I would sincerely think there was something wrong if everyone loved everything I did. My goal in life is to make sure I piss off the right people.[/quote]

Perhaps unfortunately, I don’t think T-Nation will ever be a giant Think Tank of Mufasas and TampaTerrys.

Bottom line: If you fill an Internet forum full of alpha-males and keyboard warriors that are pretending to be alpha-males, there will be some severely caustic, inflammatory stuff being spewed.

Often, I think that the condescending natures of many posters are unwarranted. Before I post, I always ask myself, “Would I speak this way if I was eating dinner with this person?” If the individual just told nine people to “STFU,” I would probably be a bit coarse in my response. But goofy questions and comments are another issue altogether–not things that should generate malice.

I worked my way through undergrad at GNC. Everyday, someone would come in that wanted a “six-pack” or wanted to “get big, but not freaky-gross big.” I calmly explained the essentials of what they needed to know, dispelled some myths, and either tried to sell them a good protein powder or pointed them to the grocery across the street. I didn’t say, “STFU, noob! Go talk to the last ten customers; I just explained that!” I didn’t say, “Go get some fucking mass, and come back when you weigh at least 220 before you even think about cutting, stickboy!”

It is all about civility and mutual respect, across all experience/knowledge levels. If you are posting in a manner that is analogous to your personality in real life, cool. However, if you are just a trolling, Internet-badass, you are likely just degrading the quality of the forums for everyone else.


[quote]Terumo wrote:
I worked my way through undergrad at GNC. Everyday, someone would come in that wanted a “six-pack” or wanted to “get big, but not freaky-gross big.” I calmly explained the essentials of what they needed to know, dispelled some myths, and either tried to sell them a good protein powder or pointed them to the grocery across the street. I didn’t say, “STFU, noob! Go talk to the last ten customers; I just explained that!” I didn’t say, “Go get some fucking mass, and come back when you weigh at least 220 before you even think about cutting, stickboy!”

I used to work at GNC as well and I can tell you that the majority of the people who came through have about 10 seconds worth of attention span unless the words “get big quick” or “lose fat in a hurry” happen to fall out of your mouth. Very few actually listened to advice because they wanted NitroTech and nothing would pursuade them otherwise.

As far as Vroom or anyone else, the goal on this forum should never be to tell someone just what they want to hear. Unless someone is destructive to progress, telling the 140lbs guy (who logs on claiming that he can’t gain weight…but then says he can gain weight but it takes eating 3,500cals a day and this makes him bloated so he can’t gain weight) to quit whining is not being negative.

One of the things I have noticed recently is that there are quite a few people on this board who actually think no one has been in their position before. One last thread involved one kid telling me that I had never weighed as much as him…even though I had. Sometimes hugs don’t get through to people like that. Apparently, you think they do. You are free to prove it.

Long live Vroom.

Vroom is a bastard. That is the point. I cannot imagine T-Nation without his presence.

T-Nation is about telling you all the things your mommy was too scared to say…

If the dress makes you look fat… we’ll tell you…

If your ears stick out… we’ll tell you…

Some people respond to this type of criticism… others don’t.

After a week of reading T-Nation it should be pretty obvious how to avoid certain “token” responses. If you post about being genetically impaired or being the exception to human physiology expect to get attacked.

Vroom, very interesting post. I guess I’m the biggest “sponge” of them all. I’ve been reading T-Nation since '97 or '98, and I’ve never posted once. T-Nation has been a constant, joining me through 2 career choices and 5 or 6 different cities. I’ve seen numerous format changes and have pretty much tried every supp they’ve ever made (I had to dig through my supp box after the prohormone ban and dust off my Androsol bottles as I’m currently on my last week of the V-D). Christ, I still remember back in the day where I was and how I felt when T-Nation broke the news that Dan Duchaine had passed away.

I guess I never posted because I felt I had to earn “my chops” before I could contribute. I’ve traveled the steroid path in the past with great success. I lived on old school BodyOpus for a summer back in college. I’ve pretty much tried a little of everything. All the while, I’ve learned much and gleaned a ton of useful info from this site. This place and the people who write for it are wonderful. Great people, great info, and great senses of humor.

Anyway, to finish up, I can’t remember laughing as hard as I did last week when I read “Imitate T-members”, “Ladies, what do you think”, and “Al Shades”. Sometimes, reading these posts is the best part of my day. Vroom, thanks for the chance to “break my cherry”.

BTW, I’ve funneled a small fortune through the years purchasing supps here so I hardly consider myself a “sponge” :). Something more like “financial invester” seems more appropriate.


First of all, I probably made a mistake by using one of your quotes in my reply, which was not directed at you, but rather the thread in general. For some reason, the quoted comment sparked my chain of thought (not that I strongly agree nor disagree with it).

I have no interest in proving that “hugs” get through to everyone. As you often say, show me one part of my thread that indicates that. You cannot. My point is simply this: Treat people with respect, and (apology for the cliche) keep it real.

You seem to think that respectful support will not get through to some people. Do you really think that a verbal bitch-slap will? I think most people will agree that the handful of newcomer, insistent know-it-alls that come on to this site are probably going to be unchanged in their approach, regardless of how we deal with them. It would seem that the positive effect of berating these posters is that it makes us feel better. I just don’t see a random pic-posting newbie saying, “Terumo told me that my physique is shit–I’d better start eating like a mule and training my ass off!”

But on another point, we have to understand that everyone is different. Professor, I have no doubt that your Internet personality has almost no deviation from your face-to-face personality. However, for many, the Internet is a beautiful way of being a confrontational asshole when people are too passive-agressive to pull that off in real life.

Concerning the usual GNC walk-in, I made it a point to continue to attempt to help people, despite four years of having 95% of my advice falling upon deaf ears. I found the key was brevity. If you cannot introduce a concept in 20 seconds, don’t bother. If the person shows interest, they’ll ask questions, and you can go from there. Otherwise, just offer advice when asked, but treat everyone as an equal human-being, despite knowledge gaps. That was my philosophy, but everyone’s will be different. I can respect that. I cannot, however, respect hardass poseurs, who constitute a good portion of the ol’ 'Net. Remove these guys, and discussion would quickly become more civil, more productive, and just downright better.


[quote]TriGWU wrote:
More people losing their virginity here then a state-school sorority house on bid night[/quote]

It’s funny because it’s true!

Geez, I’m almost afraid to voice my opinion now. I might hurt someones feelings or something. I think I’m going to spend the rest of the week crying!


Anyway, thanks and/or welcome to those that actually did manage to squeak into this thread before it got totally hijacked. This place really is great and has so much to offer.

Some things a few folks (not naming any names or anything - I’m kidding, these are good lessons for anyone newer to Internet forums) may want to try to keep in mind:

  • Don’t go looking for insult and injury where none is intended. For example, in the thread above “food issues” was meant to refer to allergies or other conditions requiring special behaviors. It wasn’t supposed to imply manorexia or anything like that. So, someone went out of their way to get their nuts twisted and hold a vandetta because of an ambiguity.

  • It’s probably not a good idea to claim expertise or dominion over any particular subject area. Someone above has set themselves up for tough times in the future if they aren’t as all knowing as they’ve recently claimed. Luckily, if they are as old (heck, I’m old enough to be happy when people think I’m young) and knowledgeable as they’ve claimed, they should be fine.

  • ProfX and others have made some good points. You can’t please everyone and you’ll go nuts trying. People are who they are on here. Try to take each post on its own merits. You can’t expect everyone to have the same opinion you do or that your opinion won’t be criticized.

  • This is T-Nation, and the T stands for Testosterone. If you need a hanky all the time perhaps you should be posting on the “I’m a big puss” site, wherever it may be. If your ego can’t take people disagreeing with you, then perhaps you should reconsider before posting an opinion in a public discussion forum here or anywhere else.

  • Yes, I agree, there are some posters on here that are the epitome of kindness, courteousy and knowledge. They help make the site the great place it is!

On a personal note, I really will think about whether or not I’m being a complete insensitive bastard when I post.

If I’m not, then I promise that I’ll try harder… :stuck_out_tongue:

Seriously though, I think anyone who posts regularly will have an opinion or style that pisses off some group of people. I’m guessing almost all of the regular contributors drive various types of people away.

Argh! Now that I have this self-doubt in my mind, I’m going to have to start posting at “I’m a big puss” if it doesn’t go away soon. I’m all out of kleenex too! Is it time to go eat some animal flesh for lunch yet?

I started lurking a while ago, when a friend and fellow T-man gave me a copy of Get Buffed by Ian King for Christmas. I think he was tired of seeing me over train, under eat, and develope imbalances like a test pilot for stupidity.
What I found was a great resource for lifting, eating, thinking, and sometimes just shootin the shit.More often than not though I find that I should probably just stick to lurking.Sometimes I can just be a flaming butthole.It turns out I have opinions on topics that I didn’t even know I had.

Vroom has grown on me too.Sorta like a mold, but maybe it’s a mold with some kind of symbiotic relationship. I don’t know, it probably needs more research.
Prof. X is great too. No one tells it like it is better.

I would like to see more people post too. Share the results of their experiences, what has worked for them, what hasn’t. The Gratefull thread is a great example.Even if it’s not as high caliber, it’s stil nice to hear and see what other people in other places are doing.


First of all, let me say that I respect many of the thread and responses that you have made. There are some anti-Vroomers out there, but I have not been one of them. However, it seems that on this particular issue, you and I differ.

Concerning the hijack, I don’t really know where this post would have went if it wasn’t hijacked. The original post was basically just a command to those that have been lurking. A few chimed in with, “Okay, I’ll start posting now,” but that was largely the extent of it.

Now, I have a question for you, or the Professor, or whomever:

Why is it that so many (I’m including you in this, although perhaps erringly) believe that everyone falls into one of two categories: (1)those that are willing to shell out insults and (2)those that need to pack-up and go to IAmAPuss.com?

If I find a particular post to be completely disrespectful, self-righteous, or ego-stroking to the point that I’m not willing to help him, I just don’t respond. Does that mean, by your qualifications, that I “need a hanky?”

Just wondering…


[quote]Terumo wrote:
Now, I have a question for you, or the Professor, or whomever:

Why is it that so many (I’m including you in this, although perhaps erringly) believe that everyone falls into one of two categories: (1)those that are willing to shell out insults and (2)those that need to pack-up and go to IAmAPuss.com?~Terumo[/quote]

You forgot
3) Those who whine because they feel full often so they stop eating and never grow while crying that you are a big meany for expecting them to actually eat enough to gain weight.

  1. Those who post pictures of themselves weighing less than most 3rd grade girls, getting tiffed because they don’t receive enough praise and then post their pic AGAIN in the ladies section so they can fish for at least one decent compliment

  2. Those who think that anything over 10% body fat is considered “fat” or “fluffy” and that any bodybuilder heavier than that, regardless of muscle mass, is somehow not worthy of the title until they look like they are in contest condition. Often this group is composed of lanky teenagers who think its cool to diet even though you can count all of their ribs each time they inhale.


  1. Those who log on to inform the world of how their IQ has risen to heights that allow them to overcome the eventual conclusion of death or aging simply because their gums are very visible.


I don’t think you need a hanky, that is up to you to decide, not me.

I do think you might be looking for insult where there is none. My first post on this thread was an invitation or request that some lurkers out there make the leap to get involved.

As one or two people commented, this place is even richer when you jump in and be part of it.

I also think your grouping is flawed. Those are not the groups I’m describing at all. The group I was invoking was the one that has some type of ego issue that they get their feelings hurt if they don’t hear something supportive like their mommy says.

I don’t think it is necessary for anyone to shell out insults, but this is the Internet and it hence is pretty hard to control. The trick is not to be able to shell out insults, but instead not to take things personally in an impersonal environment.

Anyway, I’m really paranoid now, this is only my take on the issue… and it’s for everyone, not directed at you specifically.

Don’t take things personally. Don’t look for insults where none are truly intended. Don’t interpret suggestions or invitations as commands. It seems a lot of people do… and it makes it less enjoyable for them. That is unfortunate.

Thats not quite fair.
You left out the “I am superhuman, both Intellectualy and Physicaly because I read Rand and Neitzche” crowd.
There is also the " I eat only whole foods prepared under the must scrutinously anal retentive laboratory conditions and therefore take myself way too seriously" folks.
And lest we forget the “I hate lifting gear” militia.

Come on man, have a little humor.

I’m finding some of the strong reactions against Vroom on this thread pretty astounding because they seem to have next-to-nothing to do with his original post. There is a command somewhere in his post that sponges/lurkers MUST post? Did I miss that? Have all of my reading comprehension skills somehow degraded significantly in the last few minutes?

Vroom’s point (and please correct me if I am wrong, Vroom) is that people should feel free to contribute and should become involved. Yes, there are brutally honest critics out there such as Professor X, but he’s not some kind of school yard bully looking to knock down a 3rd grader for his lunch money. We’re all adults on here and if some of those adults are delusional enough to think the job of T-Nation is to stroke their collective egos, then they probably need his brand of pimp-slapping. And if you diagree with his assessment, then do so. He’s a (very) big boy - I think he can take it.

I lurked for a little bit on here before jumping feet first into the fray, but once I did, no looking back. After a few posts, you become more comfortable speaking your mind on a variety of topics. Sure, there are some in which I know I am not qualified, so I play the role of student, ask my questions and listen attentively.

I also tend to be a lot more noob-friendly because it’s not like I am THAT far removed from being new to a lot of this. So, if someone slams a noob for asking a question that has been asked before, I like to help out with an answer because if you are truly new to all of this, you might not even have an idea where to begin to find answers on things. Some people forget what it was like to be new, clueless, but full of enthusiasm (which is sad).

Anyway, I highly recommend more people get involved because the site can only be as valuable as the contributions of it participants.


  • Return with honor.


Where did you expect this to go? You ask for a bunch of people’s opinion, you will find some that don’t agree with you or everything you said.

You have been condescending on some of your replies–as has MOST anyone who has made a habit of offering opinions on these and many other forums. I certainly am guilty. Sometimes, we feel, that the poster deserves it. Sometimes we have a bad day.

Simply look at both of your ‘apologies’ above. If you want to apologize-do it. If not, then blast away, but be prepared for the repercussions.

I have been guilty of the short response, and I have also called someone out for giving such responses. Different day, different post–different perspective. It happens.

I do feel that if someone asks a decent question they are entitled to a decent answer. The now famous eat more lift more does not qualify. While reading the archives can be, it should be tempered with some proper referencing to help the poster. If the question is one that is often repeated, just let it go. T’s point is well put–more of the posts should be looked at like you are sitting with the person and having a conversation.

Now, that does not mean that some responses and questions NEED a good snide response. Quite honestly some are just ridiculous. But a genuine question deserves a genuine response.

This should not imply that we are all going to agree all the time. And quite frankly, thank goodness for that. But that does not mean the person does not belong on T, and should go to pussies-r-us. Hell, even the T-leaders I’m sure disagree on some/many things. That is what think tanks are allabout. Get a group together, get varied opinions from varied backgrounds and expertises,
and try to quantify the info and present it to people so they then can make a more informed decision.

All we have to do is be repectfull of one another, as much/often as possible.

I have been lurking or sponging off this site now for several months. Haven’t offered up any advice simply because I don’t have the knowledge.

A little about me if I may, May of 2004 I kept twisting my ankle when I would go bowling, I wondered what was wrong and stepped on a scale, believe it or not but the scale yelled at me, “Get your fat ass off of me”. Actually it rolled around to a weight of 310lbs.

I went to my wife and said, I got to do something before I end up dead. So I started lifting some weights which I had in the back room of the house. Lost a couple pounds nothing major, and a friend told me about some pills to help burn fat he had purchased at GNC. I went to GNC and bought some pills, (they didnt work) and thought I was set. Took the pills for a month and imagine my surprise to find out I had gained weight, and could not lift anymore than when I started. Back to GNC I went, asked a couple questions and the guy told me, the pills are a supplement, they are not magic. Your diet and activity level (exercise) must be inline in order for a supplement to produce any benefits.

Anyway, long story short he gave me a Mens Fitness magazine and I read through it and went to there website and lurked a while, then asked some questions and then went to another site and another and so on, they were all the same, I would get responses like, “Use the Search Button” or “Read the Noobie Threads” on and on and on. So, I took that advice and found that I need to 1) Get my diet in check 2)Find a routine and not just sit down and lift a few weights 3)Read more.

This brings me to T-Nation, above and beyond all the others. I found out, by reading, about Sled Pulling, thought to myself that looks like a good thing to do for cardio, so I made one. Which brought me to believe that is a tough tough workout.

My only contribution I can really make at this time would simply be, read all you can, and ask what you don’t understand.

Flaming a Flamer does nobody any good. Some people are soft spoken, some give it to you straight. I would much rather someone tell me the way it is straight, then to sugar coat it.


[quote]sasquatch wrote:
All we have to do is be repectfull of one another, as much/often as possible.

Amen to that.


I have not taken offense to anything that you or anyone else has said. I’m a pretty thick-skinned guy, actually. I can only remember one time that I was legitimately pissed at someone on T-Nation, and considering I’ve been around since Ribose-C (yum…), that means that I’ve read a lot of controversial stuff.

It isn’t so much that insulting comments bother me on a personal level. I just get irritated at the fact that a random sample of people on the Internet tends to be a lot more aggressive and inflammatory than a random group of people in the real world (not the show on MTV–that would totally defeat my argument).

I understand that this isn’t the real world, and people are going to behave differently. I’m not even trying to complain about the presence of those people. I just think that on a website dedicated to a higher caliber of thinking, there should not be as much bickering, bitching, and strawman-ing. I give you props, Vroom, as I do to ProfX. However, for each seasoned poster that has a controversial edge, there exist five 16 year-old, just-started-my-nutrition-class, passive-agressive, keyboard warriors.