T Nation

What About The Debt?

Your guy was elected the other night but do you really expect him to focus on the debt since he was the one who raised it to such a lofty level?

And how do we lower the debt, or don’t you think it’s a problem.

Discuss.

Reagan raised the debt ceiling 18 times. GWB exploded the debt as well. Neither side has been committed to lowering this. I would love to see it attacked with spending cuts and tax reform. Let’s see if BOTH sides decide it’s time to get serious about it because NEITHER has in the past. Acting as if the national debt is Obama’s to own only is ludicrous.

Here’s a quote from 1952: “The truth of the matter is that we do not know whether we have gone as far as we can go in debt…a lot of people are sure we are bankrupt already.”

We have been arguing about the national debt since the beginning. Maybe Republicans are now ready to actually do something about it rather than just pay it lip service? Cause lord knows they haven’t when they had the keys to the world.

[quote]H factor wrote:
Reagan raised the debt ceiling 18 times. GWB exploded the debt as well. Neither side has been committed to lowering this. I would love to see it attacked with spending cuts and tax reform. Let’s see if BOTH sides decide it’s time to get serious about it because NEITHER has in the past. Acting as if the national debt is Obama’s to own only is ludicrous.

Here’s a quote from 1952: “The truth of the matter is that we do not know whether we have gone as far as we can go in debt…a lot of people are sure we are bankrupt already.”[/quote]

How would you reform the tax code?

What programs would you cut?

[quote]H factor wrote:
Reagan raised the debt ceiling 18 times. Neither side has been committed to lowering this. [/quote]

I can absolutely agree with you on this point. But, we’re now to the point that there needs to be something done about it. Obama raised the debt more than the past three Presidents combined. But, this thread is not to blame one side or the other.

Now that we are where we are and we’ve reelected obama how do we get the debt down?

What are the most important steps to take and in what order?

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:
Reagan raised the debt ceiling 18 times. GWB exploded the debt as well. Neither side has been committed to lowering this. I would love to see it attacked with spending cuts and tax reform. Let’s see if BOTH sides decide it’s time to get serious about it because NEITHER has in the past. Acting as if the national debt is Obama’s to own only is ludicrous.

Here’s a quote from 1952: “The truth of the matter is that we do not know whether we have gone as far as we can go in debt…a lot of people are sure we are bankrupt already.”[/quote]

How would you reform the tax code?

What programs would you cut? [/quote]

This was posed as solely a Democratic problem by the OP. I would start with our bloated military considering we spend more than the next 10 biggest spending countries on it. I’d look at Medicare, Social Security, etc. You have to start with the biggest pieces of the pie.

The tax code is 3.8 million words and filled with all sorts of dumb ass loopholes. I’m not an expert on it, but I’m sure anything that large and complicated is filled with opportunities for fraud. Find the fraud, find the BS loopholes and get rid of them. You have to attack both ends to see any success (revenue and spending).

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:
Reagan raised the debt ceiling 18 times. Neither side has been committed to lowering this. [/quote]

I can absolutely agree with you on this point. But, we’re now to the point that there needs to be something done about it. Obama raised the debt more than the past three Presidents combined. But, this thread is not to blame one side or the other.

Now that we are where we are and we’ve reelected obama how do we get the debt down?

What are the most important steps to take and in what order?[/quote]

Your OP claims otherwise: “YOUR” guy won. HE raised it to this level. (Why was this level when we need to fix it and not when it was massive in 2004 anyways?) You’ve started by attacking the other side and acting as if the problem was created by them and them alone and it is up to them to fix it.

I don’t claim to know all the answers. I do know it’s going to take both sides coming together on agreements and that doesn’t happen when you paint everybody into corners as your OP attempts.

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:
Reagan raised the debt ceiling 18 times. GWB exploded the debt as well. Neither side has been committed to lowering this. I would love to see it attacked with spending cuts and tax reform. Let’s see if BOTH sides decide it’s time to get serious about it because NEITHER has in the past. Acting as if the national debt is Obama’s to own only is ludicrous.

Here’s a quote from 1952: “The truth of the matter is that we do not know whether we have gone as far as we can go in debt…a lot of people are sure we are bankrupt already.”[/quote]

How would you reform the tax code?

What programs would you cut? [/quote]

This was posed as solely a Democratic problem by the OP. I would start with our bloated military considering we spend more than the next 10 biggest spending countries on it. I’d look at Medicare, Social Security, etc. You have to start with the biggest pieces of the pie.

The tax code is 3.8 million words and filled with all sorts of dumb ass loopholes. I’m not an expert on it, but I’m sure anything that large and complicated is filled with opportunities for fraud. Find the fraud, find the BS loopholes and get rid of them. You have to attack both ends to see any success (revenue and spending).

[/quote]

That’t great, but what exactly within these “programs” would you cut? Would you cut a whole branch. We don’t need the Air Force, the Navy and Marines have jets already. Do you cut the Marines, hell they just do what every other branch does.

How will this affect unemployment? Would it actually save money? If you end the Marine Corps about 225,000 Marines will be unemployed not to mention the civilian workers, how would deal with that?

On top of all that it would only save $3,122,287,000, which was the Marines entire budget in 2011.

http://www.finance.hq.navy.mil/FMB/11pres/PMC_Book.pdf

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:
Reagan raised the debt ceiling 18 times. GWB exploded the debt as well. Neither side has been committed to lowering this. I would love to see it attacked with spending cuts and tax reform. Let’s see if BOTH sides decide it’s time to get serious about it because NEITHER has in the past. Acting as if the national debt is Obama’s to own only is ludicrous.

Here’s a quote from 1952: “The truth of the matter is that we do not know whether we have gone as far as we can go in debt…a lot of people are sure we are bankrupt already.”[/quote]

How would you reform the tax code?

What programs would you cut? [/quote]

This was posed as solely a Democratic problem by the OP. I would start with our bloated military considering we spend more than the next 10 biggest spending countries on it. I’d look at Medicare, Social Security, etc. You have to start with the biggest pieces of the pie.

The tax code is 3.8 million words and filled with all sorts of dumb ass loopholes. I’m not an expert on it, but I’m sure anything that large and complicated is filled with opportunities for fraud. Find the fraud, find the BS loopholes and get rid of them. You have to attack both ends to see any success (revenue and spending).

[/quote]

What loops holes in the tax code are you referring to?

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:
Reagan raised the debt ceiling 18 times. GWB exploded the debt as well. Neither side has been committed to lowering this. I would love to see it attacked with spending cuts and tax reform. Let’s see if BOTH sides decide it’s time to get serious about it because NEITHER has in the past. Acting as if the national debt is Obama’s to own only is ludicrous.

Here’s a quote from 1952: “The truth of the matter is that we do not know whether we have gone as far as we can go in debt…a lot of people are sure we are bankrupt already.”[/quote]

How would you reform the tax code?

What programs would you cut? [/quote]

This was posed as solely a Democratic problem by the OP. I would start with our bloated military considering we spend more than the next 10 biggest spending countries on it. I’d look at Medicare, Social Security, etc. You have to start with the biggest pieces of the pie.

The tax code is 3.8 million words and filled with all sorts of dumb ass loopholes. I’m not an expert on it, but I’m sure anything that large and complicated is filled with opportunities for fraud. Find the fraud, find the BS loopholes and get rid of them. You have to attack both ends to see any success (revenue and spending).

[/quote]

That’t great, but what exactly within these “programs” would you cut? Would you cut a whole branch. We don’t need the Air Force, the Navy and Marines have jets already. Do you cut the Marines, hell they just do what every other branch does.

How will this affect unemployment? Would it actually save money? If you end the Marine Corps about 225,000 Marines will be unemployed not to mention the civilian workers, how would deal with that?

On top of all that it would only save $3,122,287,000, which was the Marines entire budget in 2011.

http://www.finance.hq.navy.mil/FMB/11pres/PMC_Book.pdf
[/quote]

No. Do we need a base in every country in the goddamn world? Look up the F-35 see much waste there? How about crony defense contracts? Do we need to nation build all over the globe? Spy on our own citizens to stay free?

I’m not saying fire all soldiers or this is the only solution. But the biggest piece of the pie is a hell of a place to start. I assume you were for the auto bailout if you’re worried about unemployment right?

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:
Reagan raised the debt ceiling 18 times. GWB exploded the debt as well. Neither side has been committed to lowering this. I would love to see it attacked with spending cuts and tax reform. Let’s see if BOTH sides decide it’s time to get serious about it because NEITHER has in the past. Acting as if the national debt is Obama’s to own only is ludicrous.

Here’s a quote from 1952: “The truth of the matter is that we do not know whether we have gone as far as we can go in debt…a lot of people are sure we are bankrupt already.”[/quote]

How would you reform the tax code?

What programs would you cut? [/quote]

This was posed as solely a Democratic problem by the OP. I would start with our bloated military considering we spend more than the next 10 biggest spending countries on it. I’d look at Medicare, Social Security, etc. You have to start with the biggest pieces of the pie.

The tax code is 3.8 million words and filled with all sorts of dumb ass loopholes. I’m not an expert on it, but I’m sure anything that large and complicated is filled with opportunities for fraud. Find the fraud, find the BS loopholes and get rid of them. You have to attack both ends to see any success (revenue and spending).

[/quote]

That’t great, but what exactly within these “programs” would you cut? Would you cut a whole branch. We don’t need the Air Force, the Navy and Marines have jets already. Do you cut the Marines, hell they just do what every other branch does.

How will this affect unemployment? Would it actually save money? If you end the Marine Corps about 225,000 Marines will be unemployed not to mention the civilian workers, how would deal with that?

On top of all that it would only save $3,122,287,000, which was the Marines entire budget in 2011.

http://www.finance.hq.navy.mil/FMB/11pres/PMC_Book.pdf
[/quote]

Not to mention that quite a few of those 225,000 men are highly trained fighting machines, who are suddenly out of work and justifiably angry as shit.

That should work out nicely.

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:
Reagan raised the debt ceiling 18 times. GWB exploded the debt as well. Neither side has been committed to lowering this. I would love to see it attacked with spending cuts and tax reform. Let’s see if BOTH sides decide it’s time to get serious about it because NEITHER has in the past. Acting as if the national debt is Obama’s to own only is ludicrous.

Here’s a quote from 1952: “The truth of the matter is that we do not know whether we have gone as far as we can go in debt…a lot of people are sure we are bankrupt already.”[/quote]

How would you reform the tax code?

What programs would you cut? [/quote]

This was posed as solely a Democratic problem by the OP. I would start with our bloated military considering we spend more than the next 10 biggest spending countries on it. I’d look at Medicare, Social Security, etc. You have to start with the biggest pieces of the pie.

The tax code is 3.8 million words and filled with all sorts of dumb ass loopholes. I’m not an expert on it, but I’m sure anything that large and complicated is filled with opportunities for fraud. Find the fraud, find the BS loopholes and get rid of them. You have to attack both ends to see any success (revenue and spending).

[/quote]

That’t great, but what exactly within these “programs” would you cut? Would you cut a whole branch. We don’t need the Air Force, the Navy and Marines have jets already. Do you cut the Marines, hell they just do what every other branch does.

How will this affect unemployment? Would it actually save money? If you end the Marine Corps about 225,000 Marines will be unemployed not to mention the civilian workers, how would deal with that?

On top of all that it would only save $3,122,287,000, which was the Marines entire budget in 2011.

http://www.finance.hq.navy.mil/FMB/11pres/PMC_Book.pdf
[/quote]

Not to mention that quite a few of those 225,000 men are highly trained fighting machines, who are suddenly out of work and justifiably angry as shit.

That should work out nicely.
[/quote]

Immediately you jump to the conclusion I think we should fire soldiers. Makes it tough to argue on here when everyone just jumps into a giant strawman. CLEARY the only thing you could take from reducing our biggest piece of the pie is firing marines, etc. You can’t come to the conclusion that we should maybe not have wasteful programs like the F-35 cause that doesn’t fit what you want me to be arguing well now does it?

I guess you guys aren’t serious about reducing the national debt anyways ZEB. Righties don’t want to discuss cutting spending unless it is spending they don’t agree with. Got it. And you think the left is bad…

Everybody wants cuts, just not cuts to the programs they like. The proposed cuts need to make pretty much everybody unhappy or they won’t be fair or sufficient enough to solve the problem.

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

How will this affect unemployment? Would it actually save money? If you end the Marine Corps about 225,000 Marines will be unemployed not to mention the civilian workers, how would deal with that?

[/quote]

Not exactly a great argument to borrow. Comes back to bite you on the behind when you talk about reducing the size of government elsewhere.

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
Everybody wants cuts, just not cuts to the programs they like. The proposed cuts need to make pretty much everybody unhappy or they won’t be fair or sufficient enough to solve the problem. [/quote]

Absolutely 100% true. Already evidenced in here.

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:
Reagan raised the debt ceiling 18 times. GWB exploded the debt as well. Neither side has been committed to lowering this. I would love to see it attacked with spending cuts and tax reform. Let’s see if BOTH sides decide it’s time to get serious about it because NEITHER has in the past. Acting as if the national debt is Obama’s to own only is ludicrous.

Here’s a quote from 1952: “The truth of the matter is that we do not know whether we have gone as far as we can go in debt…a lot of people are sure we are bankrupt already.”[/quote]

How would you reform the tax code?

What programs would you cut? [/quote]

This was posed as solely a Democratic problem by the OP. I would start with our bloated military considering we spend more than the next 10 biggest spending countries on it. I’d look at Medicare, Social Security, etc. You have to start with the biggest pieces of the pie.

The tax code is 3.8 million words and filled with all sorts of dumb ass loopholes. I’m not an expert on it, but I’m sure anything that large and complicated is filled with opportunities for fraud. Find the fraud, find the BS loopholes and get rid of them. You have to attack both ends to see any success (revenue and spending).

[/quote]

That’t great, but what exactly within these “programs” would you cut? Would you cut a whole branch. We don’t need the Air Force, the Navy and Marines have jets already. Do you cut the Marines, hell they just do what every other branch does.

How will this affect unemployment? Would it actually save money? If you end the Marine Corps about 225,000 Marines will be unemployed not to mention the civilian workers, how would deal with that?

On top of all that it would only save $3,122,287,000, which was the Marines entire budget in 2011.

http://www.finance.hq.navy.mil/FMB/11pres/PMC_Book.pdf
[/quote]

No. Do we need a base in every country in the goddamn world? Look up the F-35 see much waste there? How about crony defense contracts? Do we need to nation build all over the globe? Spy on our own citizens to stay free?

I’m not saying fire all soldiers or this is the only solution. But the biggest piece of the pie is a hell of a place to start. I assume you were for the auto bailout if you’re worried about unemployment right? [/quote]

The Marine Corps currently utilizes the F-18 Hornet platform, which is old as shit. The F-35 JSF will replace every aircraft in the Navy and Marine Corps and it’s cheaper than the F-22 Raptor.

We also don’t have bases in every country, you are exaggerating.

I was not for the auto bailout the way it was handled. I do understand and accept there are going to be unemployment issues with spending cuts. I don’t think most people that post, “we need to cut program,” thinks about the consequence though.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

How will this affect unemployment? Would it actually save money? If you end the Marine Corps about 225,000 Marines will be unemployed not to mention the civilian workers, how would deal with that?

[/quote]

Not exactly a great argument to borrow. Comes back to bite you on the behind when you talk about reducing the size of government elsewhere.
[/quote]

I understand that; however, the military is one of the few, “programs,” listed in the consitution.

I am trying to inspire thought. I believe military spending could easily be reduced to save money. Cuts can be made and jobs saved at the same time.

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
Everybody wants cuts, just not cuts to the programs they like. The proposed cuts need to make pretty much everybody unhappy or they won’t be fair or sufficient enough to solve the problem. [/quote]

Absolutely 100% true. Already evidenced in here. [/quote]

Sure, cut programs not cited in the consitution. Works for me.

Why do people always jump on the “well Reagan did this” or “Bush raised the debt by this much” arguments? If a Republican blows up a bus full of kids does that make it okay for a Democrat as well? Can’t you stand on your own merits? Fuck Bush and fuck Reagan; tell me how Obama isn’t going to keep crushing us under debt.

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:The Marine Corps currently utilizes the F-18 Hornet platform, which is old as shit. The F-35 JSF will replace every aircraft in the Navy and Marine Corps and it’s cheaper than the F-22 Raptor.

We also don’t have bases in every country, you are exaggerating.

I was not for the auto bailout the way it was handled. I do understand and accept there are going to be unemployment issues with spending cuts. I don’t think most people that post, “we need to cut program,” thinks about the consequence though.
[/quote]

We have a TON of bases and you know this. Of course I was exaggerating just like I assume you’re exaggerating when you talk about the F-35 being cheap. Cheaper than some other bloated government weapon that we overspent on? Maybe. Cheap? Yeah right.

What % of our economy should be spent on the military? Are you like Romney and thought we needed to INCREASE defense spending? We spend like 37% of all the dollars spent on defense in the entire world. Don’t think we have any waste there?

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Your guy was elected the other night but do you really expect him to focus on the debt since he was the one who raised it to such a lofty level?
[/quote]

I expect him to focus on it about the same as Romney would have. The difference is when things go bad Obama will probably give a slightly better speech, so everything else equal he comes out ahead there at least.