T Nation

We've Returned to the Golden Calf: Money

[quote]Ladies and Gentlemen, our human family is presently experiencing something of a turning point in its own history, if we consider the advances made in various areas. We can only praise the positive achievements which contribute to the authentic welfare of mankind, in fields such as those of health, education and communications. At the same time, we must also acknowledge that the majority of the men and women of our time continue to live daily in situations of insecurity, with dire consequences. Certain pathologies are increasing, with their psychological consequences; fear and desperation grip the hearts of many people, even in the so-called rich countries; the joy of life is diminishing; indecency and violence are on the rise; poverty is becoming more and more evident. People have to struggle to live and, frequently, to live in an undignified way. One cause of this situation, in my opinion, is in the our relationship with money, and our acceptance of its power over ourselves and our society. Consequently the financial crisis which we are experiencing makes us forget that its ultimate origin is to be found in a profound human crisis. In the denial of the primacy of human beings! We have created new idols. The worship of the golden calf of old (cf. Ex 32:15-34) has found a new and heartless image in the cult of money and the dictatorship of an economy which is faceless and lacking any truly humane goal.
source: http://whispersintheloggia.blogspot.com/2013/05/weve-returned-to-golden-calf-francis-on.html

[/quote]

I would say it is our relationship with God. We have denied God’s kingship and replaced it with money.

I do agree with you BrotherChris. You can read about all of this in Revelation.

I wholeheartedly agree with the gist of this speech and have been saying as much for years now. The Pope really nailed this one on the head.

I wonder how the religious conservatives will reconcile THIS part of the speech with their own hypocritical beliefs…

“…I encourage the financial experts and the political leaders of your countries to consider the words of Saint John Chrysostom: ‘Not to share one?s goods with the poor is to rob them and to deprive them of life. It is not our goods that we possess, but theirs’ (Homily on Lazarus, 1:6 ? PG 48, 992D).”

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

I wonder how the religious conservatives will reconcile THIS part of the speech with their own hypocritical beliefs…
[/quote]

Will you please elaborate on these hypocritical beliefs?

[quote]drunkpig wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

I wonder how the religious conservatives will reconcile THIS part of the speech with their own hypocritical beliefs…
[/quote]

Will you please elaborate on these hypocritical beliefs?

[/quote]

No.

Perspective…I think we’ve totally taken word out of the friggin’ vocabulary, especially with regards to
the first post…How wrong is that article? Let me count the ways.

#1
Anyone who has a cursory knowledge of history and does some digging himself can read similar
themes and writing from the last U.S. Depression…same shit, different era, there’s nothing new under the Sun.

#2
“indecency and violence are on the rise”…The former may be true, but the latter is utter horseshit,
at this MOMENT,especially if they read Steven Pinker’s exhaustively researched book “The Better Angels Of Our Nature”,
we live in VERY peaceful times compared historically and with…wait for it…Perspective.
Anybody fucking history students here?? King Kai where the fuck are you to assist with perspective?
'xcuse the language.
And as for “indecency”…nothing new anyway, that is increasing only in tandem with population growth.
Mankind has not changed, one of America’s founding Fathers Benjamin Franklin for example, was a horny bastard
and a member of the Hell Fire Club…go figure.

#3
I could go on, but there’s nothing that chaps my ass more than my Christian brothers generally “Americentrize”
these problems and link 'em to the fucking Book Of Revelation, the most enigmatic and un-interpretable book
theologians of all denominations are still debating about to this day.
So go read about Genghis Khan’s exploits and get ready for your jaw to drop for how many deaths he’s
responsible for…and that’s just one teeny tiny historical example kiddies, and there still hasn’t been a HALT from
up above to stop the violence and wars…Mankind has not “changed”, the decrease in overall
violence is not me putting on the “rose colored glasses” for present day, no way…but read some history people…and compare,
and thank your lucky stars you were born in this era, and not the eras before.

[quote]Karado wrote:
Perspective…I think we’ve totally taken word out of the friggin’ vocabulary, especially with regards to
the first post…How wrong is that article? Let me count the ways.

#1
Anyone who has a cursory knowledge of history and does some digging himself can read similar
themes and writing from the last U.S. Depression…same shit, different era, there’s nothing new under the Sun.

#2
“indecency and violence are on the rise”…The former may be true, but the latter is utter horseshit,
at this MOMENT,especially if they read Steven Pinker’s exhaustively researched book “The Better Angels Of Our Nature”,
we live in VERY peaceful times compared historically and with…wait for it…Perspective.
Anybody fucking history students here?? King Kai where the fuck are you to assist with perspective?
'xcuse the language.
And as for “indecency”…nothing new anyway, that is increasing only in tandem with the population,
Mankind has not changed, one of America’s founding Fathers Benjamin Franklin for example, was a horny bastard
and a member of the Hell Fire Club…go figure.

#3
I could go on, but there’s nothing that chaps my ass more than my Christian brothers generally “Americentrize”
these problems and link 'em to the fucking Book Of Revelation, the most enigmatic and un-interpretable book
theologians of all denominations are still debating about to this day.
So go read about Genghis Khan’s exploits and get ready for your jaw to drop for how many deaths he’s
responsible for…and that’s just one teeny tiny historical example kiddies, and there still hasn’t been a HALT from
up above to stop the violence and wars…Mankind has NOT “changed” much, the decrease in overall
violence is not me putting on the “rose colored glasses” for present day, no way…but read some history people…and compare,
and thank your lucky stars you were born in this era, and not the eras before.
[/quote]

Just because people were saying similar things decades ago doesn’t diminish from the truth, whatever level it may be, in what he is saying.

Couldn’t agree more with #2. We are actually living in probably the least violent of times in human history, and will probably continue to live in an increasingly less violent era as time goes on.

I think the comparison to Revelations is a stretch, but I also think it is safe to say that the overall gist of the Pope’s speech, that we are increasingly becoming worshippers of the almighty Dollar and Materialism at the risk of our spiritual health is still right on the money. No pun intended.

The Pope seems like a good guy…but Africa, old ‘‘Burma’’, Afghanistan, etc. etc. have been hellholes and dens
of immorality WAY before it seemed to perspectively ‘creep’’ into the mainstream… ‘wonder if any full page Catholic "writings’’
on those, or the 1990’s horrific massacre, the biggest since the Jewish holocaust BTW, that was barely covered by U.S. media.

We can’t ‘pick and choose’ our “Revelations” and such…The world’s generally a shitty place…NOTHING new under the sun.
The article maybe mostly “truth”, but it was “true” 1000 years back as well,
and the “turning point” is horseshit TOO…WHAT “turning point”?
Mankind has ALWAYS been mean and nasty.
Truth in some points, but nothing new.

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

“…I encourage the financial experts and the political leaders of your countries to consider the words of Saint John Chrysostom: ‘Not to share one?s goods with the poor is to rob them and to deprive them of life. It is not our goods that we possess, but theirs’ (Homily on Lazarus, 1:6 ? PG 48, 992D).”[/quote]

Perfect display of a typical progressive tactic which tries to convince a person that, because conservatives believe in a small federal government with little or no taxation, they are naturally greedy little bastards who want only to hoard every penny they earn for themselves. Personally I think it is merely a projection of the progressive’s own greed and that they are in utter disbelief that there are those out there who actually do give to the poor of their own free will.

DB also displays another equally typical progressive tactic which proffers the lie that the only entity capable of taking care of the poor is an oversized and over reaching federal government.

And for the trifecta, Mr. Cooper calls on one of the lamest tactics of them all - bastardizing and/or completely obliterating the the context of religious leaders’ and scholars’ writings and using them as ‘proof’.

If it weren’t for christian conservatives, there would be decidedly less charitable giving in this country, and the rest of the world as well.

I would further suggest that DB wallows in the same hypocrisy he is so quick to point out in others.

[quote]drunkpig wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

“…I encourage the financial experts and the political leaders of your countries to consider the words of Saint John Chrysostom: ‘Not to share one?s goods with the poor is to rob them and to deprive them of life. It is not our goods that we possess, but theirs’ (Homily on Lazarus, 1:6 ? PG 48, 992D).”[/quote]

Perfect display of a typical progressive tactic which tries to convince a person that, because conservatives believe in a small federal government with little or no taxation, they are naturally greedy little bastards who want only to hoard every penny they earn for themselves. Personally I think it is merely a projection of the progressive’s own greed and that they are in utter disbelief that there are those out there who actually do give to the poor of their own free will.

DB also displays another equally typical progressive tactic which proffers the lie that the only entity capable of taking care of the poor is an oversized and over reaching federal government.

And for the trifecta, Mr. Cooper calls on one of the lamest tactics of them all - bastardizing and/or completely obliterating the the context of religious leaders’ and scholars’ writings and using them as ‘proof’.

If it weren’t for christian conservatives, there would be decidedly less charitable giving in this country, and the rest of the world as well.

I would further suggest that DB wallows in the same hypocrisy he is so quick to point out in others.

[/quote]

Actually, I was referring mostly to the sorts of people who complain about their taxes going to lazy people living off of entitlement programs, most of which (based on my own anecdotal experiences) are both conservative and Christian. I think it’s hypocritical for those sorts of people to complain about the use of their money to help the poor and needy.

Nowhere did I say or insinuate that a large govt is necessary to take care of this social problem, so I don’t what lie you accuse me of proffering. Nice try at jumping to a conclusion I never made. You jumped and missed, unfortunately. I hope the landing doesn’t hurt too much.

Where did I use any of what the Pope said of proof of anything? I said I agreed with him and separately wondered how some people would reconcile a particular statement of his with their own actions. Again, nice try but you swung and missed badly on that one as well.

As for your last sentence, you’ve really made yourself out to be the fool now. I do TONS of work within my community helping the poor, the infirm, the troubled, the young, the elderly and so forth. I have no need to get into specifics here since I don’t do any of that for your approval, but suffice it to say that on that last point you really don’t know what you’re talking about.

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
I wholeheartedly agree with the gist of this speech and have been saying as much for years now. The Pope really nailed this one on the head.

I wonder how the religious conservatives will reconcile THIS part of the speech with their own hypocritical beliefs…

“…I encourage the financial experts and the political leaders of your countries to consider the words of Saint John Chrysostom: ‘Not to share one?s goods with the poor is to rob them and to deprive them of life. It is not our goods that we possess, but theirs’ (Homily on Lazarus, 1:6 ? PG 48, 992D).”[/quote]

The words of Saint John Chrysostom were not for ‘everyone else’ to heed. They are for you to heed.
Give up your goods first, then ask others to do the same.

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
I wholeheartedly agree with the gist of this speech and have been saying as much for years now. The Pope really nailed this one on the head.

I wonder how the religious conservatives will reconcile THIS part of the speech with their own hypocritical beliefs…

“…I encourage the financial experts and the political leaders of your countries to consider the words of Saint John Chrysostom: ‘Not to share one?s goods with the poor is to rob them and to deprive them of life. It is not our goods that we possess, but theirs’ (Homily on Lazarus, 1:6 ? PG 48, 992D).”[/quote]

The words of Saint John Chrysostom were not for ‘everyone else’ to heed. They are for you to heed.
Give up your goods first, then ask others to do the same.[/quote]

I lead a pretty simple life, quite frankly. Yeah, I own some property and that sort of thing, but I also spend more time than virtually anyone I know who hasn’t taken a vow of celibacy working with the sort of people that Jesus implored upon us to help. I’m not perfect in this sense by any means but, yeah, I listen to those words of John Chrysostom. Do you?

I know Matt Ryan does, because he sure as shit gave away that NFC Championship Game. Quite commendable and charitable of him.

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
I wholeheartedly agree with the gist of this speech and have been saying as much for years now. The Pope really nailed this one on the head.

I wonder how the religious conservatives will reconcile THIS part of the speech with their own hypocritical beliefs…

“…I encourage the financial experts and the political leaders of your countries to consider the words of Saint John Chrysostom: ‘Not to share one?s goods with the poor is to rob them and to deprive them of life. It is not our goods that we possess, but theirs’ (Homily on Lazarus, 1:6 ? PG 48, 992D).”[/quote]

The words of Saint John Chrysostom were not for ‘everyone else’ to heed. They are for you to heed.
Give up your goods first, then ask others to do the same.[/quote]

I lead a pretty simple life, quite frankly. Yeah, I own some property and that sort of thing, but I also spend more time than virtually anyone I know who hasn’t taken a vow of celibacy working with the sort of people that Jesus implored upon us to help. I’m not perfect in this sense by any means but, yeah, I listen to those words of John Chrysostom. Do you?

I know Matt Ryan does, because he sure as shit gave away that NFC Championship Game. Quite commendable and charitable of him.[/quote]

Good for you. Now it’s none of your business what other people do with their possessions, is it?

Let me explain this so you get it clearly, if I want to talk football, I will do it in the football thread. Woopee, the 49er’s won. Woopee, Keapernick is the second coming in 10 games. Really, who gives a fuck? Happy now?

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
I wholeheartedly agree with the gist of this speech and have been saying as much for years now. The Pope really nailed this one on the head.

I wonder how the religious conservatives will reconcile THIS part of the speech with their own hypocritical beliefs…

“…I encourage the financial experts and the political leaders of your countries to consider the words of Saint John Chrysostom: ‘Not to share one?s goods with the poor is to rob them and to deprive them of life. It is not our goods that we possess, but theirs’ (Homily on Lazarus, 1:6 ? PG 48, 992D).”[/quote]

The words of Saint John Chrysostom were not for ‘everyone else’ to heed. They are for you to heed.
Give up your goods first, then ask others to do the same.[/quote]

I lead a pretty simple life, quite frankly. Yeah, I own some property and that sort of thing, but I also spend more time than virtually anyone I know who hasn’t taken a vow of celibacy working with the sort of people that Jesus implored upon us to help. I’m not perfect in this sense by any means but, yeah, I listen to those words of John Chrysostom. Do you?

I know Matt Ryan does, because he sure as shit gave away that NFC Championship Game. Quite commendable and charitable of him.[/quote]

Good for you. Now it’s none of your business what other people do with their possessions, is it?

Let me explain this so you get it clearly, if I want to talk football, I will do it in the football thread. Woopee, the 49er’s won. Woopee, Keapernick is the second coming in 10 games. Really, who gives a fuck? Happy now?[/quote]

Yes.

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

I think the comparison to Revelations

[/quote]

There is only one Revelation, not multiples. Maybe you should read it.

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

I think the comparison to Revelations

[/quote]

There is only one Revelation, not multiples. Maybe you should read it.
[/quote]

Wow.

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

Actually, I was referring mostly to the sorts of people who complain about their taxes going to lazy people living off of entitlement programs, most of which (based on my own anecdotal experiences) are both conservative and Christian. I think it’s hypocritical for those sorts of people to complain about the use of their money to help the poor and needy. [/quote]

“Entitlement programs” and “help the poor and needy” are not synonyms. But I appreciate you showing your belief that an over reaching, corrupt federal government located in DC can be so much more charitable than a private citizen whose earnings were confiscated by the very government you hold in such high regard. There is no constitutional basis for a federal welfare program.

Yeah. You kinda did. Then, to drive the point home, you reinforced your love for big government in the first paragraph of your reply.

You quoted him, but not as proof of anything? Then why include the quote?

Nowhere did the pope say that government was to be responsible for the poor and the needy. Not once. Yet you bastardize the context of what he said as proof that conservative christians are hypocrites because they think The welfare system is being gamed and people are cashing govt checks every month who don’t deserve them.

[quote]As for your last sentence, you’ve really made yourself out to be the fool now. I do TONS of work within my community helping the poor, the infirm, the troubled, the young, the elderly and so forth. I have no need to get into specifics here since I don’t do any of that for your approval, but suffice it to say that on that last point you really don’t know what you’re talking about.
[/quote]

But conservative christians don’t? Maybe you’re happy paying taxes because you trust the federal government to be a better steward of your money than you are. It’s not hypocritical for someone to believe they can do a better job with their money than the federal government.

Would these christians you revile so much also happen to own a rice farm and drive a big-assed new pick-up?

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

Actually, I was referring mostly to the sorts of people who complain about their taxes going to lazy people living off of entitlement programs, most of which (based on my own anecdotal experiences) are both conservative and Christian. I think it’s hypocritical for those sorts of people to complain about the use of their money to help the poor and needy.

[/quote]

Well, if one doesn’t assume that government transfers actually help people, beyond temporary assistance, one isn’t a hypocrite and everything is reconciled, no?

[quote]drunkpig wrote:
There is no constitutional basis for a federal welfare program.

[/quote]

Eh… You’ll get a good fight from those who read the whole “provide for the general welfare” bit in that manner.

Jefferson doesn’t really help the cause here either:

[i] “To lay taxes to provide for the general welfare of the United States, that is to say, “to lay taxes for the purpose of providing for the general welfare.” For the laying of taxes is the power, and the general welfare the purpose for which the power is to be exercised. They are not to lay taxes ad libitum for any purpose they please; but only to pay the debts or provide for the welfare of the Union.” --Thomas Jefferson: Opinion on National Bank, 1791. ME 3:147 [i]

sourced:

http://www.dailypaul.com/103339/thomas-jefferson-clarifies-to-provide-for-thegeneral-welfare

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

I think the comparison to Revelations

[/quote]

There is only one Revelation, not multiples. Maybe you should read it.
[/quote]

Wow.[/quote]

Wow that you did not know it was the Book of Revelation and not Revelations, or Wow that you should actually read it?