T Nation

Westside

what is the reason that westside does not perform the competition lifts themselves during max effort days. I am thinking of trying the program, but wish to perform regular squats for 2 weeks, then switch to deadlifts for 2weeks on max effort day.

Ralf
This is taken from an article that Louie Simmons wrote on the Conjugate method.

"It has been known and discussed in Weightlifting for All Sports by Ajan and Baroga that a greater training result can be obtained over a greater length of time by using special exercises than by doing the classical lifts.Doing the same exercises repeatedly will rapidly decrease your coordination.
There are many reasons for this.Our observation is that very few lifters can increase their abilities without special exercises.

A question that should be addressed is, when handling max lifts,how do you recover? And how do you at the same time increase muscle mass? The conjugate method is the answer.

This is a complex method of rotating special exercises that are close in nature,in our case to the powerlifts.
This method also increases special strength qualities and perfects coordination,which will help advance technical skill.First, and most important, is to properly select exercises that address your particular problems.It could be an exercise that will build up a lagging muscle group or a special strength,such as starting,eccentric,or accelerating strength".

Hope this is of some use to you.

Alright Beni, how you been? Havent seen you post in a while,

Ralph, if you go read the massive amount of info on westside you will be sure to find enough reason to give this style of training all you’ve got. Westide is about making you stronger by strengthening your weaknesses, the max effort movements test you and allow you to figure out what needs done to make you better. Box squats also tranfer spped and power into your competition free squats.

Also if big martin is about you can ask him and he will be very helpful. he knows more about this style of training than most of the folk in T-Nation.

Ally

For what is worth I take a single every 6 to 8 weeks with my suit on even if it only 85% just to get a feel for the comp squat it has worked well for me. I would not pull or full squat two weeks in a row but that is just me …

Give it a try and see how it works …

Oh the reason full comp squat or pull is not premormed very often is that it taxes you body to much.

Using different bars and the box allows you to get the same strain with less weight on your back. SO you can train at 95%-105% the majority of the time. With-out getting run down.

if i were to try the program it would have to be w/ consistent use of the classical lifts. maybe its just me, but i cant see myself not going heavy on the actual lifts for a prolonged period of time, and then have to demonstrate strength at the lift come contest time.

[quote]Ralf wrote:
if i were to try the program it would have to be w/ consistent use of the classical lifts. maybe its just me, but i cant see myself not going heavy on the actual lifts for a prolonged period of time, and then have to demonstrate strength at the lift come contest time.[/quote]

Why not just give something different a try. Are you elite? They are. They must be doing something right…

And if it doesn’t work for you, what is losing 8 weeks going to do…

mattwray,

there are tons of different ways to train. at no time did I say that westside was no good. I did try their style of training for the bench w/ disappointing results, mostly because when i finally tested my bench it felt way different from the incline, decline, floor presses i had been doing on max effort days. I was out of groove and the weight felt heavy. hence, my question on why not just rotate the classical lifts throughout the cycle. crain, coan, hatfield were all “elite” powerlifters who did not train westside. i don’t think i have to be elite to ask a question.

It is fine to rotate the core lifts. There are two points that I think are being missed here.

  1. You have already stated that when you trained conjugated periodization your core lift suffered. It is therefore a no braininer that you need more emphasis on the core lifts.

  2. The majority of people training at Westside would probably tell you their base was established with a traditional progressive overload style of training. In other words, with a focus on training and progressively increasing the core lifts. There is nothing wrong with this.

At some point we need to aknowledge that the emphasis on alternative movements has roots in the fact that you eventually reach the point of diminishing returns in training the core lifts.

Based on your initial posts, you have clearly not reached this point. Stick with your instincts and place an emphasis on the core lifts.

It sounds like you already have you mind made up … And that you know it all anyways so why even ask … Don’t listen to Lou he doesn’t know anything …

Ed coan is a freak only ed coan can train like ed coan and Dr. Squat used alot of the same principles that “Westide” (I hate that term) only people that train at westside train westside …

I have worked with alot of people of all levels of strength most of them that said they did not improve using “westside” (i’ll use the bench for an example.

One did not know how to bench …
Had a week ass upper back …
Had week ass tris …

Did not know how to asses their own weekness and how to fix them …
Where just plain ass lazy and did not want to work ie looking for magic …

try what you want you already have your mind made up … The results will speak for themselves

“Insanity is doing the same thing you have always done and expecting different results.”

[quote]squat1000b700 wrote:
It sounds like you already have you mind made up … And that you know it all anyways so why even ask … Don’t listen to Lou he doesn’t know anything …

Ed coan is a freak only ed coan can train like ed coan and Dr. Squat used alot of the same principles that “Westide” (I hate that term) only people that train at westside train westside …

I have worked with alot of people of all levels of strength most of them that said they did not improve using “westside” (i’ll use the bench for an example.

One did not know how to bench …
Had a week ass upper back …
Had week ass tris …

Did not know how to asses their own weekness and how to fix them …
Where just plain ass lazy and did not want to work ie looking for magic …

try what you want you already have your mind made up … The results will speak for themselves

“Insanity is doing the same thing you have always done and expecting different results.”[/quote]

Word!

“I hear all the time that Westside training is for the advanced and that only top 10 lifters can do the training that is required at Westside. It is true that our training is advanced, but it is also great for beginners. Why start out wrong, or start with a program that will yield only small results? Our stats show that we have developed 62 Elite lifters.”

From: “Advanced System for Beginners” by Louie Simmons

mattwray,

who the hell said that louie simmons does not know what he is talking about. look at my post and tell me where i said that. second of all, you imply that periodization is useless and only works for ed coan because he is a genetic freak. it’s obvious that your knowledge of powerlifting training methodology is limited. hatfield, crain, mike bridges( do you even know who he is), others too numerous to mention have successfully used cycling to lift monsterous amounts of weight w/ perfect technique. you say i’ve all ready made up my mind, i was simply asking why the core lifts were not used on max effort days, I have never really heard an explanation for it. but it appears that you’ve all ready made up your mind that westside is the only way to train, and that it cannot be questioned under any circumstances. btw if you told doc squat that he uses louie’s methods he would laugh at you. are you talking about compensatory acceleration? i beleive doc wrote about that before louie popularized conjugate training. it’s obvious that westside has had it’s share of success, especially in federations such as the IPA. no one can argue w/ that, but don’t take everything they say as the be all end all.

one thing you are overlooking is that every few weeks, you’d take a heavy single on your DE days. that way you are still working the core lift and getting more used to technique and groove and all that

First off I never said they could not be I just stated it was not a good idea from my experence. I have met and or compeated agaist everyone you have listed, I have tried just about every form of training you could imagine. I do alot of things in my own training that Lou would question I know because I talk to him on all the time. I have a very open mind, I just don’t know why you would ask a question knowing that you would not like the answere.

Ralf
What are you lifting at the moment in the Squat/Bench?

[quote]Ralf wrote:
mattwray,

who the hell said that louie simmons does not know what he is talking about. look at my post and tell me where i said that. second of all, you imply that periodization is useless and only works for ed coan because he is a genetic freak. it’s obvious that your knowledge of powerlifting training methodology is limited. hatfield, crain, mike bridges( do you even know who he is), others too numerous to mention have successfully used cycling to lift monsterous amounts of weight w/ perfect technique. you say i’ve all ready made up my mind, i was simply asking why the core lifts were not used on max effort days, I have never really heard an explanation for it. but it appears that you’ve all ready made up your mind that westside is the only way to train, and that it cannot be questioned under any circumstances. btw if you told doc squat that he uses louie’s methods he would laugh at you. are you talking about compensatory acceleration? i beleive doc wrote about that before louie popularized conjugate training. it’s obvious that westside has had it’s share of success, especially in federations such as the IPA. no one can argue w/ that, but don’t take everything they say as the be all end all. [/quote]

First of all Dumbass, I quoted what Squat1000Bench700 said. Learn how to comprehend what you read before you attack.

Second, I could give a rats ass what you think of me. You asked about “Westside” and apparently didn’t get the answers you wanted. Maybe you should go try Mens Health?

[quote]Ralf wrote:
maybe its just me, but i cant see myself not going heavy on the actual lifts for a prolonged period of time, and then have to demonstrate strength at the lift come contest time.[/quote]

Who even says you have to go a prolonged time without going heavy on the actual lifts?

Ask anyone who has trained “Westside” for a decent amount of time and they will all tell you that it is highly adaptable and individualized. You make the system fit your needs. If you need to squat, bench, and pull heavy every couple of weeks, then do it!

I think a lot of people look at “Westside” and think it is a program set in stone. Hell, it’s not even a program; it’s more of a system. It’s like a style of training where you take different ideas and make it work for you.

I’m not telling you to train this way, fuck, don’t do it then. But, don’t tell me it doesn’t work, because there are too many strong ass muthas that will disagree with you. Don’t even tell me it doesn’t work for you, because the whole idea is to make it work for you.

Jelqing doesn’t work for me either,
Todd

I am still trying to understand what the big friggin’ deal is.

You guys have your undies in a scrunch b/c this guy wants to try something different from what you do/ have done. Let it go.

Frankly, assuming he uses speed work and does a good job of selecting accesory movements to address his weaknesses, I don’t see why he won’t have good success. Assuming he has some level of experience under his belt, he should be able to determine if he is not recovering adequately and can adapt accordingly.

Rotating between deads and comp squats every two weeks on ME may work for this guy.

Give it a rest.

That is the point if you do the right assitaence work you will get better. He asked for feedback I gave mine.

I was just surprised that someone would ask a question then get an awnswere … Then give a reply back like he is already an expert on the different types of training styles.

Why ask a question that you already know the answere to