Thanks a lot Ericka and Scott, definitely makes a lot of sense the things you guys said. And WSB is such a logical program, I think it will work well. I guess the only remaining question I have is that our gym doesn’t have a GHR or a Reverse Hyper. What kind of exercises should I substitute in for those?
A beginner can definitely start with a Westside Template. All of our powerlifters and athletes will start out on a modified westside template with adequate GPP work and some SPP movements and sufficient pre-hab work.
Westside’s theories work. The problem I have is when someone new to strength training comes in and tries to run a full Westside template with accomodating resistance without first having a foundation to build upon and worse, they have no idea what proper form is.
“No, you can’t start a circa-max band phase. It is only your 2nd week of training!”
Brian
I agree 100% with Brian Whiddon. When I decided to start powerlifting I went all Westside. I read all of the articles at Elite FTS twice. I did a lot of light work to get my form down and I was still getting stronger and putting on muscle. I am about a year into my PL training and my numbers are continuing to go up. Last summer my max bench was 265 raw I am now at 350 raw, my squat is now over 500 when I did 460 at a meet in October and my deadlift is pushing 500 after 425 in the same meet. Remember to learn your technique and push your self as far as you can go with just straight weight then add the bands and chains.
Brian & Nihron,
Great points. Too many people think WSB’s system is just chains and bands. It seems people overcomplicate it on a regular basis. I think the system is incredibly simple and very easy to understand. The hard stuff is putting the blood sweat and tears under the bar!
I don’t own any bands or chains and I feel pretty confident saying that though I’ve been lifting seriously for a year, I’m not yet ready for anything of that sort. I want to take the basics of Westside and adapt them to my needs. I’ll read up on all the elitefts articles and put together a program. The one thing I wonder about is changing it up. I know you rotate ME exercises and accessory work, but does your body ever get used to the low reps? Do powerlifters ever do a cycle of say 10x10 to get some hypertrophy and just to change it up?
It doesn’t hurt to drop a ME day every once in a while and work solely on the repetition method. Do this when you are feeling like you want to train but just cannot move heavy weight. Also your assistant movements, for the most part, should be higher rep, 8-12, sets.
[quote]Laxxone wrote:
I don’t own any bands or chains and I feel pretty confident saying that though I’ve been lifting seriously for a year, I’m not yet ready for anything of that sort. I want to take the basics of Westside and adapt them to my needs. I’ll read up on all the elitefts articles and put together a program. The one thing I wonder about is changing it up. I know you rotate ME exercises and accessory work, but does your body ever get used to the low reps? Do powerlifters ever do a cycle of say 10x10 to get some hypertrophy and just to change it up?[/quote]
Just follow Tate’s basic 9-week program. After going through it, and reading all his other articles you will have a better idea what to do when building your workouts. As far as hypertrophy, just up the volume in the supplementary and accessory exercises. For now, just go through Tate’s 9-week intro program and eat a TON of food, and you will have a good start.
BTW-if you don’t have access to a GHR or reverse hyper, just substitute pullthroughs, 45 degree back ext, RDL’s, GM’s, etc. Any exercises that hammer the posterior chain will do. Good luck!
Far be it from me to disagree with Dave Tate or any of the numerous people who worship everything Louie Simmons or Dave Tate says as if it were the gospel, but yes, there is a reason you don’t put a beginner on an advanced program. I say this having a great deal of respect for Louie Simmons, Dave Tate, WSB and their lifters.
Can the WSB program be adapted intelligently for a beginner or intermediate PL? I am sure it can, but the idea that the WSB program is the end all and be all of PL programs and that all others are inferior is complete and utter nonsense. Louie has a great deal to offer the strength world, but the knowledge of strength training and powerlifting does not begin and end in Columbus, Ohio.
Matthew A. Levy
Los Angeles Lifting Club
Checkmate, what sort of program would you recommend? I know you said linear periodization before, but what would you say to the arguments against it proposed in “500 the Hard Way”?
[quote]Laxxone wrote:
Checkmate, what sort of program would you recommend? I know you said linear periodization before, but what would you say to the arguments against it proposed in “500 the Hard Way”?[/quote]
To be honest with you, Jack Reape’s “arguments” against Western-style periodization are cursory and dismissive and use silly and inapplicable analogies to football to “prove” his point. I will note however that he concedes that linear periodization will initially cause improvements (of course he claims this is only for raw beginners which is simply not true). Moreover, Reape only provides one example of linear periodization (not applicable) to powerlifting. A good example of a linear periodization program applicable to powerlifting might me a 5x5 system over 8-12 weeks where the top weight initially begins at your 10 RM and gradually increases over a period of weeks to your 5 RM. There are other such examples.
Let me let you in a dirty little secret that no one talks about: ligament and tendon strength. Long-term injury-free strength gains will require incredibly strong ligaments and tendons. Ligaments and tendons strengthen much much more slowly than do muscles and far slower than CNS strength increases. Submaximal repeated effort builds ligaments and tendons. Advanced lifters using advanced programs have the necessary ligament and tendon strength to handle heavy loading on a regular basis. Beginners and intermediate lifters have a much lower capacity.
And FYI, I personally do not use a linear periodization model. But I am no longer a beginner or intermediate lifter so more advanced techniques are appropriate for me. However, a beginner or intermediate lifter needs to lay a solid foundation before moving on to more advanced techniques. The Bulgarians no doubt had a very effective system for training their Olympic Weightlifters. They trained 6 hours a day 3x per week and 4.5 hours a day 3x per week. Do you think they started that way? Hell no!
Here at the Los Angeles Lifting Club we have many world record holders in powerlifting at various weight classes, both male and female. We have several elite powerlifters male and female as well. Interestingly however, most of the people who reached these lofty achievements did it with little or no lifting experience before walking into the LALC (unlike some gyms out there who won’t even let you train with them unless you are already an elite lifter). So we know a little something about the different stages a lifter goes through in his career from novice to intermediate to advanced. And guess what? Every single one of these lifters used linear periodizations programs in their development. For some reason, our lifters also do not suffer serious training injuries… I wonder why?
Oh, BTW many of our world record squatters use a medium width stance when squatting and use squatting or olympic lifting shoes instead of flat-soled shoes like Chuck Taylors (we also have WR wide-stance squatter who use Chucks). I just add that to point out that many roads lead to Rome and that the WSB system is but one of many effective systems.
Matthew A. Levy
Los Angeles Lifting Club
Thanks Checkmate for the thoughtful answer. I’ll definitely keep that all in perspective as I get ready for my meet.
Laxxone,
I highly recommend using “westside” because it works. The key is adapting it to help you best. Use some of there principles, and do what works for you. If you don’t benefit from an exercise, don’t do it. Simple, huh? Go to elitefts.com and read. Westside is great for beginners or advanced trainers.
I’ve decided to adopt the Westside style and follow a program like this: http://www.elitefts.com/documents/9week-training-program.htm However, I feel like deadlift is largely ignored. I know all the hamstring work will help with the deadlift, but I feel like theres no replacement for actually pulling weight. Any suggestions?
[quote]Laxxone wrote:
I’ve decided to adopt the Westside style and follow a program like this: http://www.elitefts.com/documents/9week-training-program.htm However, I feel like deadlift is largely ignored. I know all the hamstring work will help with the deadlift, but I feel like theres no replacement for actually pulling weight. Any suggestions?[/quote]
Work your DL in to your ME work and your accessory work but don’t abandon the GM and squat movements. I do a ME DL movement every 4-5 Weeks.
ME DL movements:
Pulls off box
various rack pulls
Reverse Band DL
DL Accessory movements:
Dimel DL
RDL
Rack Pulls (I like 5 reps)
Pulls off box
Rev. Band DL
CV DLs
Stiff-leg DL
Pull-throughs (DL-like)
Don’t forget DE-DLs 10x1 with 50% 1RM.
Brian
Thanks a lot Brian. I started the program tonight and I have a couple of questions. How does the reverse hyper differ from normal back hyperextensions? It felt like it was hitting the same muscles. What exactly are JM presses? How about floor presses. When and why would these exercises be used? Then for deadlift, what is a Dimel deadlift? And how does a Romanian Deadlift work your muscles differently than a conventional deadlift? How about sumo stance versus regular? I’m also concerned that I’ll be creating an imbalance between my chest and back, only doing a rowing motion once a week. Is that a common problem? And a final question about powerlifting meets, is an over/under grip for deadlift competition legal? I feel like such a newbie asking all these questions, but I have been reading the site for about a year. Just a few little lingering questions I have. Thanks a lot everyone for all the help, it’s greatly appreciated.
ALL of those questions are answered here.
Start with anything by Dave Tate.
seriously bro, read up.
[quote]Brian Whiddon wrote:
A beginner can definitely start with a Westside Template. All of our powerlifters and athletes will start out on a modified westside template with adequate GPP work and some SPP movements and sufficient pre-hab work.
Westside’s theories work. The problem I have is when someone new to strength training comes in and tries to run a full Westside template with accomodating resistance without first having a foundation to build upon and worse, they have no idea what proper form is.
“No, you can’t start a circa-max band phase. It is only your 2nd week of training!”
Brian
[/quote]
I totally agree with this. Using a WS template is one thing, but trying to jump in and use chains and bands right away is just insane.
I also agree that there is more than one way to get strong and to become a top lifter. However, the proof is in the pudding, and the fact remains that WS produces top lifters. They must be doing something right. There is no one program perfect for everyone. However, it seems to me that the majority of those who have trained WS have had great succes with it regardless of their level of experience.
Just to chime in on this,
I’ve been tweaking a hybrid Westside/oly program for the last year or so, and have been lifting a little over 3 years. I get semi-regular oly coaching from someone who trains under a decent Eastern Bloc lifter, and have used his approach some, and a variety of other lifting schemes- linear periodization (Bompa), Pavel’s Bear, 2x5, and 5x5, and 5-4-3-2-1 (Polonquin). I’ve made excellent gains using Westside- my squat has gone from a weak 225 to 335 in a year, and my deadlift from 405 to 472 in the same time.
Aside from the gains, I just find the Westside approach to be hellaciously fun. Switching up exercises, playing with weird stuff like kneeling squats, figuring out weak links and training them with assist stuff- it’s just really cool and forgiving, especially when you have a very random work and martial arts schedule and need to be able to change things around to adapt.
Other things may work, but things that are fun are a lot easier to keep doing and getting better at.
Now, having disagreed with the gentleman from the LA Lifting club- uh, when are you gonna get your website back up? I could use some more experienced PL coaching, and my fiance is my lifting partner, and she could really use some good female lifters to encourage her.
Thanks,
Andrew