Westside to Sheiko and Back...

[quote]WRPL wrote:
deadlifts do NOT count as pulling, because the only stress they place on the shoulder girdle is downwards (i.e. only working the upper back) you need to do lat work if you expect a strong bench… there is a reason that “experts and gurus” are “experts and gurus” and you’re not[/quote]

Well this statement pretty much shows your knowledge, or lack thereof. Deadlifts down only place stress downward on the shoulder girdle. There is a VERY significant amount of shoulder retraction needed to keep your upper back from rounding. I dont care what your or any “experts” say, deadlifts work your ENTIRE back, including upper/mid/lower traps, lats, romboids, and erectors.

And there comes a time when you have to decide what “experts” you are going to listen to. Most of them are right to an extent, but if you are looking at training for bench, then you should listen to the experts that bench a ton, if your are caring for a nagging injury, then maybe listen to the expert that has experience in this area.

And no, for the most part there isn’t a reason they are experts or gurus. Its pretty much self proclaimed, or they miraculously develop a cult like following.

Enough of the debbie downers here, today was a great workout.

Week 2 Day 3:

Squat 5x2 (250)
DB bench 5x8,7 (90’s) ***
Squat-paused 4x4 (185,205) **
Cable flys 5x10 (80)
GM 4x10 *
1-leg hip ext. 1x15

***Ramped up again, (70,75,80,85,90) Got 8 on all sets except the last set I got 7
** I dont know if I copied down the percentage wrong on these, because they were way lighter than last week, and I was feeling good so I went up a bit, but still kept it light.

  • I still cant get GM’s I cant do very much weight and only feel it in my back. I was gonna do 4x10 but just wasn’t feeling it, so I did 3x10 and then one sets of hip extensions.

Good workout though. Very tough after wednesdays deadlifting and lunges. Im glad to get two days recovery now. And im gonna give up on Goodmornings for a while, and replace them with RDL’s. I feel they are doing more harm than good at the moment, but will likely come back to them eventually.

No its because all throughout HS i would cut to 152. And through my first two years of college wrestling id cut to 157. Its a long road down when youre a wannabe.

[quote]dankid wrote:
WRPL wrote:
deadlifts do NOT count as pulling, because the only stress they place on the shoulder girdle is downwards (i.e. only working the upper back) you need to do lat work if you expect a strong bench… there is a reason that “experts and gurus” are “experts and gurus” and you’re not

Well this statement pretty much shows your knowledge, or lack thereof. Deadlifts down only place stress downward on the shoulder girdle. There is a VERY significant amount of shoulder retraction needed to keep your upper back from rounding. I dont care what your or any “experts” say, deadlifts work your ENTIRE back, including upper/mid/lower traps, lats, romboids, and erectors.

And there comes a time when you have to decide what “experts” you are going to listen to. Most of them are right to an extent, but if you are looking at training for bench, then you should listen to the experts that bench a ton, if your are caring for a nagging injury, then maybe listen to the expert that has experience in this area.

And no, for the most part there isn’t a reason they are experts or gurus. Its pretty much self proclaimed, or they miraculously develop a cult like following.[/quote]

Well this statement pretty much shows your knowledge, or lack thereof. Indeed, obviously deadlifting work your erectors, I never said it didnt, I am talking about stress on scapula/shoulder girdle. Also scapular retraction only involves mid traps/rhomboids, the lats and lower traps do play a part in stabilizing, but that DOES NOT mean that deadlifting is enough for them. After all, when you are doing bicep curls, your triceps work as stabilizers. However bicep curls are NOT going to give you any amount of tricep development.

This thread is kind of retarded, but is there a reason it’s in the powerlifting forum?

This kid is no powerlifter, and this is a training log.

It just doesn’t make sense.

Dankid, you are weak and small.

Any average male with a glimmer of common sense would be able to surpass your strength and muscular levels within a couple months training.

You spend too much time reading about training programs.

You are obviously a ‘smart’ guy and your brain is working all the time thinking, but you have ZERO COMMON SENSE when it comes to training at the gym.

The only way I ever see you doing well and making progress, is if you one you developed a phobia of computers/books… Even then, you’ll probably find another way of being a over-analysing freak.

Every time I read one of your posts, it makes me wince. BECAUSE IT IS EVIDENT YOU DON’T HAVE A FUCKING CLUE ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE DOING - but you won’t be told otherwise.

[quote]WRPL wrote:
dankid wrote:
WRPL wrote:
deadlifts do NOT count as pulling, because the only stress they place on the shoulder girdle is downwards (i.e. only working the upper back) you need to do lat work if you expect a strong bench… there is a reason that “experts and gurus” are “experts and gurus” and you’re not

Well this statement pretty much shows your knowledge, or lack thereof. Deadlifts down only place stress downward on the shoulder girdle. There is a VERY significant amount of shoulder retraction needed to keep your upper back from rounding. I dont care what your or any “experts” say, deadlifts work your ENTIRE back, including upper/mid/lower traps, lats, romboids, and erectors.

And there comes a time when you have to decide what “experts” you are going to listen to. Most of them are right to an extent, but if you are looking at training for bench, then you should listen to the experts that bench a ton, if your are caring for a nagging injury, then maybe listen to the expert that has experience in this area.

And no, for the most part there isn’t a reason they are experts or gurus. Its pretty much self proclaimed, or they miraculously develop a cult like following.

Well this statement pretty much shows your knowledge, or lack thereof. Indeed, obviously deadlifting work your erectors, I never said it didnt, I am talking about stress on scapula/shoulder girdle. Also scapular retraction only involves mid traps/rhomboids, the lats and lower traps do play a part in stabilizing, but that DOES NOT mean that deadlifting is enough for them. After all, when you are doing bicep curls, your triceps work as stabilizers. However bicep curls are NOT going to give you any amount of tricep development.
[/quote]

My point is, if you think that this program is rediculous, and deadlifts and bench aren’t enough for “shoulder stability” then why dont you go tell boris sheiko he doesn’t know what he’s doing. And then take a look at starting strength. No rowing, no scapular stability work, no rotator cuff work. Just deadlifts and power cleans. So like I said, I see where you are coming from, but that doesn’t you are correct, or that it is the only way.

[quote]dankid wrote:
WRPL wrote:
dankid wrote:
WRPL wrote:
deadlifts do NOT count as pulling, because the only stress they place on the shoulder girdle is downwards (i.e. only working the upper back) you need to do lat work if you expect a strong bench… there is a reason that “experts and gurus” are “experts and gurus” and you’re not

Well this statement pretty much shows your knowledge, or lack thereof. Deadlifts down only place stress downward on the shoulder girdle. There is a VERY significant amount of shoulder retraction needed to keep your upper back from rounding. I dont care what your or any “experts” say, deadlifts work your ENTIRE back, including upper/mid/lower traps, lats, romboids, and erectors.

And there comes a time when you have to decide what “experts” you are going to listen to. Most of them are right to an extent, but if you are looking at training for bench, then you should listen to the experts that bench a ton, if your are caring for a nagging injury, then maybe listen to the expert that has experience in this area.

And no, for the most part there isn’t a reason they are experts or gurus. Its pretty much self proclaimed, or they miraculously develop a cult like following.

Well this statement pretty much shows your knowledge, or lack thereof. Indeed, obviously deadlifting work your erectors, I never said it didnt, I am talking about stress on scapula/shoulder girdle. Also scapular retraction only involves mid traps/rhomboids, the lats and lower traps do play a part in stabilizing, but that DOES NOT mean that deadlifting is enough for them. After all, when you are doing bicep curls, your triceps work as stabilizers. However bicep curls are NOT going to give you any amount of tricep development.

My point is, if you think that this program is rediculous, and deadlifts and bench aren’t enough for “shoulder stability” then why dont you go tell boris sheiko he doesn’t know what he’s doing. And then take a look at starting strength. No rowing, no scapular stability work, no rotator cuff work. Just deadlifts and power cleans. So like I said, I see where you are coming from, but that doesn’t you are correct, or that it is the only way.[/quote]

I love how you quote all these ‘experts’ right after saying that just because an expert says something, doesn’t mean its true.

[quote]Stuntman Mike wrote:

I love how you quote all these ‘experts’ right after saying that just because an expert says something, doesn’t mean its true.[/quote]

And I love how you guys have nothing better to do than to come on and talk crap online to people.

Ive already made my point about what was said with training “too much” bench. Take it or leave it, but im not gonna respond anymore in this thread to you guys that are just trolls.

[quote]dankid wrote:
im not gonna respond anymore in this thread to you guys that are just trolls.[/quote]

Can’t… take… the IRONY…

[quote]dankid wrote:
WRPL wrote:
dankid wrote:
WRPL wrote:
deadlifts do NOT count as pulling, because the only stress they place on the shoulder girdle is downwards (i.e. only working the upper back) you need to do lat work if you expect a strong bench… there is a reason that “experts and gurus” are “experts and gurus” and you’re not

Well this statement pretty much shows your knowledge, or lack thereof. Deadlifts down only place stress downward on the shoulder girdle. There is a VERY significant amount of shoulder retraction needed to keep your upper back from rounding. I dont care what your or any “experts” say, deadlifts work your ENTIRE back, including upper/mid/lower traps, lats, romboids, and erectors.

And there comes a time when you have to decide what “experts” you are going to listen to. Most of them are right to an extent, but if you are looking at training for bench, then you should listen to the experts that bench a ton, if your are caring for a nagging injury, then maybe listen to the expert that has experience in this area.

And no, for the most part there isn’t a reason they are experts or gurus. Its pretty much self proclaimed, or they miraculously develop a cult like following.

Well this statement pretty much shows your knowledge, or lack thereof. Indeed, obviously deadlifting work your erectors, I never said it didnt, I am talking about stress on scapula/shoulder girdle. Also scapular retraction only involves mid traps/rhomboids, the lats and lower traps do play a part in stabilizing, but that DOES NOT mean that deadlifting is enough for them. After all, when you are doing bicep curls, your triceps work as stabilizers. However bicep curls are NOT going to give you any amount of tricep development.

My point is, if you think that this program is rediculous, and deadlifts and bench aren’t enough for “shoulder stability” then why dont you go tell boris sheiko he doesn’t know what he’s doing. And then take a look at starting strength. No rowing, no scapular stability work, no rotator cuff work. Just deadlifts and power cleans. So like I said, I see where you are coming from, but that doesn’t you are correct, or that it is the only way.[/quote]

Starting Strength you say? That’s by that Rippetoe guy right? Hey, what was the name of that elite athlete he tranied? You know the one I’m talking about, right?

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
Starting Strength you say? That’s by that Rippetoe guy right? Hey, what was the name of that elite athlete he tranied? You know the one I’m talking about, right?[/quote]

Are you trying to be sarcastic? Because I dont know of any, but im sure there are MANY elite athletes that started with starting strength or a very similar program.

not trying to be a dick here but when I was at this level of strength I benefited from doing a lot more RE work, if I were to go back I would probably have gone with WS4SB or a linear bodybuilding program with the focus on repping to failure. Strength programs work a lot better once you’ve built some mass already.

Well, we now know that when Dankid says that he has been doing “Westside,” he does not mean that he has been training as Louie Simmons teaches.

He means he has been doing WS4SB. (Or some hacked up version of it perhaps.)

And for some reason he now thinks he should do Sheiko.

Well someone that doesn’t even know what westside or sheiko is shouldn’t be commenting here, so please leave.

[quote]trav123456 wrote:
not trying to be a dick here but when I was at this level of strength I benefited from doing a lot more RE work, if I were to go back I would probably have gone with WS4SB or a linear bodybuilding program with the focus on repping to failure. Strength programs work a lot better once you’ve built some mass already.[/quote]

Thx for the advice trav. Ive tried bodybuilding programs and RE work in the past and it seems to be counterproductive for me. When I started cutting back on volume and focusing on strength I started making progress. Just wish I would have started training for strength much earlier.

You know…Boris Sheiko actually had his athletes doing upper back work as part of their GPP work on off days.

How 'bout them apples.

[quote]Stronghold wrote:
You know…Boris Sheiko actually had his athletes doing upper back work as part of their GPP work on off days.

How 'bout them apples.[/quote]

Well if that is so, then I probably should be doing it as well, but in all the writeups ive seen on sheiko, none of them mention anything about GPP on off days.

And I still feel that 4 weeks without direct shoulder stability work wont cause any problems. And starting strength works just fine for many and only has deadlifts and cleans in the original program.

when I go back to westside in 2-3 weeks, I will include more upper back work, but less than I was previously doing for sure. I want to try to hit deadlifts a bit more often, and cut back on the direct back assistance.

Week 3 Day 1

CG Bench 2x2, 2x2 (200, 215)
Squat 8x2 (245+minis) *
Pause bench 5x3 (185,185, 195,195, 175)
RDL 5x8 (185)
Pushup 5x8
Facepull 3x12 (90)

*Bands estimated at +60-90. Started with 185, then 205, then 225, then 245

Im straying from my plan a bit on bench. Everything else I feel like im getting much stronger, but the bench weights are still feeling very heavy. I’ll probably cut down the volume a bit on bench in favor of some heavier work. I know a lot of people dont initially experience increases in there bench while on sheiko right away, so it might just be something where this plan doesn’t ellicit immediate gains, but they are recognized later on down the road.

Either way, things are going good. The cold weather is starting and im beginning to feel stiff, so im trying to stay loose on the off days, and im upping my calories to handle this volume. Looking forward to maxing out in 2 weeks.

Week 3 day 2

Deficit deadlift 6x1 (265,275,285) 1x1 (315)
Bench 6x3 (175,185,195)
Deadlift 3x2 (315)
Seated DB clean 3x15-20 (10’s)
Lunges 5x5 (165)

Nothing to say really. The reduced volume was nice, and my grip is getting stronger. But I still needed straps on the second and third set of deadlifts.

Im thinking hamstrings and glutes will need some work, but i’ll worry about that after this program is over.