Yes, most good mornings count when the upper body is parallel to the ground or it might be a little higher depending on your flexibility. Make sure you dont lose your arch though, or else most of the stress will transfer to the lower back instead of the 'strings. I love good mornings, the first time you throw these in your rotation you will experience great soreness!
Most people have extremely tight hamstrings anyway, some stretching might be good too if not already.
But, I knw this one girl that could do good mornings so low she could stick her head between her legs without losing her arch…but that’s an entirely different thread…
char-dawg,
one suggestion, i coresponded with louie himself for years via phone, and i THOUGHT i was doing box aquats right untill i actually went up there and trained with those guys for a few weeks. louie coached me through a box squat workout, and it made a big difference!
i am not saying you have to train in columbus with those guys, but seek out a westisde experience person to coach you! a good way to do that is to post on the Elite Fitness Systems website and ask if they know anyone in your area you can train with. i see it done all the time.
also i totally agree with goldberg that taping your workouts very usefull. you may think you are lifting explosively, but tape yourself and then compare bar speed with the westside guys on their tapes(which also can be purchased) and you might be suprised. using LIGHT enough loads to produce speed off the box is the key!!!
I have been box squatting for months now and I def. see gains, so stick with them. I used to collapse my chest into my knees and GM the weight up at the bottom of the squat like you do, but I recently learned the secret to an amazing squat(through experience). Here is what I learned:
Get amazingly strong and functional abs. Do sit-ups, not crunches. Try Straight leg situps or spread eagle situps(straight leg situps with your legs spread apart). They are amazing.
Hip strength will increase your squat and deadlift like whoa! Try some Sumo Deadlifts or super wide stance box squats(exactly what they sound like).
Glute strength will also help your squat and DL alot. Try some pull throughs as demonstrated on Westside’s squat video.
If you haven’t seen the videos, see them. They are worth the cost.
If you do that, I guarantee you will fix your form.
Sorry to come in so late Char, as others have said your squat stance is going to play a huge role. As seanc stated its a matter of physics, irrespective of posterior chain strength you will not be able to maintain balance if your foot position/stance is not correct. This is not to discount what Goldberg etal had to say, im sure that a strong posterior chain will help tremendously with this providing that the stance/balance is okay.
Okay now for some questions of my own.
The Westside seminar video. It was reviewed in an article here at t-mag (the stuff we like i think) and got a 9 out of 10. There write up that went with the score however made my sceptical, it was not the glowing appraisal that normally comes about westsides stuff… either way I was wondering if any of you guys have seen/purchased this video?
Is it worth the money? How much of the info is already covered in the artices here and at elitefitnesssystems?
I thought i had a handle of westside after reading the periodization bible articles and some of the articles at elitefitnesssystems but after reading more it seems the more i read the more confused I get…
I have no interest in becoming a powerlifter but I feel that I could defiantely benefit from doing a Westside program. How long would you’ll recommend staying on it? And no, not my whole lifetime Goldberg!
GAHHHHHH i just wrote a big long thing and it was lost … damn!!!
anyway here is a shorter version of some other questions i had…
What do you guys think is the optimal time to stay with the same ME exercises. I have read 2-3 weeks in some of the articles but it seems that most of the guys using use change them every week…
Bands?
How long is it best to use bands for? I have read in one of dave tate’s articles that you should not use them for longer then 4 weeks as it can excessivly tax the joints. But in the circa maximal phase article by Louie Simmons it looks as though he is using bands for 17 consecutive weeks…
Antagonists?
What does westside think of training antagonists together? King and Poliquin recomend this becaue you can take advantage of recipricol inhibition (i think thats the reason anyway???. Apparently when you contract a muscle its antagonists are forced to relax and recover quicker… It looked as though the same principle featured in Christian T’s CNS tricks for the bench article. Anyway my question is would it not work to do a heavy set of rows or something inbetween a heavy set of a ME bench exercise?
Thanks again for all the good advice. I guess I should make one thing clear here: I do know how to perform GMs and so on, and I have been incorporating them (and GH raises, etc.) into my workouts for some time now. I’ve just never trained Westside style, so I want to make sure I’ve got the concepts down as Westside uses them.
I think that getting a couple of tapes is a good idea, and will do so soon. As for finding someone who trains Westside style in my area… uh, my area is Hiroshima, Japan. So that’s not too likely.
Beginners can stick with the same ME lifts for up to 3 weeks, the more advanced lifters seem to switch every 1 or 2 weeks.
I personally use bands 2 weeks on/2 off on the box squat, and 3 weeks on 2 off on the bench, alternating with straight weight. It depends on how much they beat up your joints. I’ve seen recommendations of 2 weeks bands/2 weeks chains, 2 weeks bands/2 weeks straight weight, or 1 week bands/1 week straight weight.
No idea about the antagonist thing. They don’t, but that doesn’t make it a bad idea
The seminar video is great. I loved it. The exercise part by itself is worth the money.
I switch max effort exercises every week.
The limit on bands is with the upper body. I do three weeks bands, three weeks chains, three weeks bands, three weeks chains, etc.
Some do train antagonists. If youll look at mine and steves journals youll see it done. its mainly done to save time. The ive fourd the inhibition stuff to be over rated.
The goal of max effort day is to strain. Not neccessarily fail. They say dont be afraid to miss. so you might fail. But on most other exercises you dont go to failure but maybe once every few weeks. Its really personalized. So on max effort day you arent really training to failure. You do one rep at 90% and then try to beat a record, and then maybe one more. You dont even have to go to failure on max effort day if you keep getting strong at that fast of a rate.
Whats the minimal volume you can train westside and still see gains?
Im talking minimal days per week and minimal minutes, I want to cut down my volume so thats why I asked
btw char-dawg, greekdawg In two weeks i finish my diet and thinking starting westside or conjugated periodization by staley, either way will have some skinny guys going for power…
So my suggestion to everyone on their box squats(i know i am a bit late) is after letting your hip flexors relax make the next thing to move be your head. Push your head back into the bar, this will keep you tight and going the right way.
I have found that the use of bands on bench days can take their toll pretty quick. So, a 2/3 week on and off cycle is probably the best.
I would also not rush into the use of bands and chains. Ya, they are neat and stuff but i think that here is so much to learn before jumping into them. Once you feel very comfortable useing the westside methods then it is time. But thats just me.
Also, for those of us who don’t have access to a rev hyper I have found and have been told by a big buffalo birdie that using back extensions can be used intstead.
This is not to say that rev hypers aren’t great…they are. But when all you have is a massage table and some ankle weights there is only so much you can do.
And kind of on that topic…
Lets make sure we share any gym ‘macguyver’ action that we have seen or used.
Yes, as GB said… the seminar tapes are really good. I think they’re actually on sale now over at elitefts. I’ve watched the exercise demonstration part about 10 times now… Dave T. is a great speaker, and Louie shows himself as well. The only complaint I have is that the participants kind of sucked. But thats actually a good thing because they make so many mistakes, that Dave T points out what you should NOT be doing.
I also agree with setting up a video camera and taping yourself. I just started doing this, and it is helping immensely. Making sure you’re knees aren’t drifting during your squats and that you’re going low enough in your good mornings… I actually seem to be motivated by the camera so I don’t have to watch myself looking like a pussy.
Oh, and get yourself some Converse Chuck T’s…! I noticed an immediate strength increase the first time I wore them during DE squats.
Paul Childress is writing an article about rotating between bands, chains, and straight weight every 3 weeks. He says it is good to use straight weight every so often to bring back the bar speed. The article should be on elite in a month or two.
Rows may work, if you read many of the training logs on elite, they will do pull-ups or chins in between sets on ME or DE bench. I started to do chins a few weeks back and it not only saves time but also brings up your conditioning as well especially well rushing to get them in within the 45 seconds of rest on DE bench. But as for accessory and supplement bench movements I pair almost every one of them with their Antagonists and it seems to work well for me. And like Goldberg said, i also really only do it for time not for anything with the CNS.
I have found that box squats help with firing the glutes first. If you find you fire your quads before your glutes in the squat, try this: sit on a bench or chair and attempt to stand up just using your glutes. You won’t be able to stand, but you will feel the glutes firing.
I have a question of my own re bands: since I’m only 5’4", I need some method of choking the bands to shorten them so that I get resistance throughout the range of motion. Any ideas?
If you don’t want to spring for the Dave Tate workshop video, I recommend Louie’s latest video on Special Strengths.
The video of the seminar got my attention QUICK, and made me want to train westside immediately after I watched it. Yah, the participants were morons, but really though, it was a GOOD learning experience since they fix a lot of their fuckups.
What I would REALLY like on this t-mag forum, would be a forum category dedicated to westside. There are plenty of people here that train this way, and I think it would rock to have something like renegade training has.
Happen to have any ratios of femur to torso lengths etc. Or maybe torso to tibia ratios? I don’t think my upper legs are especially long but I’ll be dammned if I can’t squat down worth a hill of beans with out my lower legs coming forward. I guess my hams are weak as shit. …Which would explain my knee pain after any quad exercise??? Ciao.
