T Nation

Westside Influenced Program Critique

I plan on qualifying for the Canadian Nationals next year and looking for a few program adjustments to help get me there. My lifts are currently all RAW Bench 265lbs Squat 365lbs and Deadlift 365lbs @ 190lbs

Day One �?? Heavy Bench

Bench Press or Variation 6 sets 2-3 Reps (Floor press Board Press or Rack Lockout) or Max Effort

Assistance:
Close Grip Press 4 X 4
Incline Dumbbell Press 3 X 10
Weighted Dips 3 X 6
Incline Dumbbell Flies 3 X 10
Weighted Chin Ups 3 X 8
Thick Bar Curls 3 X 10

Day Two - Max Effort Lower Body

Max Effort - Squat or Box Squat or Squat Safety Bar (or variation)

Assistance:
Good Morning 3 X 8
Rack Pull 3 X 5
Cable Pull-Through 3 X 8
Weighted Pull Ups 3 X 10
Barbell or T Bar Row 3 X 10

Day Three - Hypertrophy Day Upper Body

Incline Dumbbell Press 3 X 8
Flat Dumbbell Press 3 X 8
Weighted Dip 3 X 6
Cable Cross Over 3 X 12
Weighted Chin Ups 3 X 10

Triceps/Bicep Superset 3 Working Sets

Day Four - Repetition Method Lower Body

Box Squat or Deadlift 4 X 5
Dumbbell Shoulder Press 3 X 6
Lateral raises 3 X10
Face Pulls 3 X 10
Weighted Pull Ups 3 X 8
Dumbbell Rows 3 X 6
Barbell or T-Bar Row 3 X 12

You do realise your RE lower body day is pretty much ALL upper body?

I personally think the volume on everything is way too high. There’s no way you can push all those exercises and get stronger.

Just cut it back and pick 3 or 4 things that you know will help your squat bench aor deadlift and work those as hard as you can.

On lower days it might be…

ME/DE exercise
front,pause or reg squat/SLDL 3x5-6
RDL/Pull thrus 3x10-12
Abs

ya definatly way to much volume, i dont think you will be able to recover from that especially from the ME days.

take hanleys advice

ME Upper

Too much volume. Also, close grip, dips, and Incline DB is over kill. All of those aren’t bad choices for supplement work, but all of them at the same time is too much…at least in my opinion. You need realize the different between PL and bodybuilding. The objective of PL is not to hit the muscle from a billion different angles. The objective is to train the movement. Pick one supplement movement and go heavy similar to what you planed for close grip. Flies are a waste of time in my opinion. Keep the chins, but add more sets and do something else for shoulders. Something for the rear delts would be preferable.

RE Upper - I would still have one main movement of day. I would probably pick flat incline or decline bench, but DBs are ok too. The problem I see with doing both incline and flat db is that you will probably burn out on both movements at the same time. If you pick one and just do 6 sets instead of 3 then you can make progress for a couple of weeks and when you stall you can switch to the other one and make progress on that for awhile. I suppose you could just switch to the BB after you stall on DBs. I would kill the dips do my overhead work on this day. Both bench and OH work will smash your tris

Me Lower.

That is too much lower back work in my opinion. I would pick either rack-pulls or GMings

RE Lower
Main Movement is ok, but I might aim for higher reps 4 or 5 reps is still pretty intense considering that you are also doing ME work. This isn’t upper day. Pick a hamstring movement, a quad movement and a lower back movement, but keep in mind that some hamstring movements smash the lower back too, so you might not need two movement.

Where is the ab work? If you want to do some extra arm work like tri extensions and curls that is fine

Distinct lack of balance between pressing and pulling movements

I will admit I keep my volume pretty high and keep in some exercises (like flies) that are useless in a powerlifting program. I do keep them in and the volume high because I’m reluctant to loose the size ive gained over the last 5 years of training. I laughed when I read my RE Lower body is all upperbody because other then one exercise it is, I guess its more phsyclogical then anything.

I was 145lbs when I started lifting, I’m now 195 and very lean. I would like to continue gaining weight and be competitve in my powerlifting fed. I would like to keep my direct arm and my volume fairly high to keep building muscle.

Does anyone have any suggestions or has anyone been in the same situation as myself?

I have been following this program the last 3 months. I don’t run into any over training issues except when I’m hitting it 4 days in a row with no break, (I’m slightly weaker on my last training day when this is the case) My strength gains have been consistent as well.

I am going to drop the Flat DB presses on my RE Effort upper body. As well as drop the Incline presses on my upper body Max Effort day. If anyone has any more progam changes or suggestings Id love to hear them!

hahahahahahahahahaha…do you seriously think that the flies are what is keeping or is responsible for the size you have? I think flies are useless in program, but to each his own.

You need to realize that lifting maximal weights is going to make you grow not make you shrink.

I was using flies as an example actually. However they due add to my chest development along with many other heavy pressing exercises I’ve preformed over the last 5 years. The also help in prevention of injury to the chest/shoulder tie in.

Feel free to post pictures of your chest development and teach me your knowledgeable ways…

I don’t think flyes diminish risk of injury to the shoulder/pec area. I think all it does is give you another opportunity to injure yourself. Not saying they are dangerous, but certainly they have no protective benefits.

Seems like you may need to prioritize.

I would also say that if you lift raw, you will not need nearly so much top-end work. Instead of the three you listed, you’d be much better off with a rotation like: regular bench press, ISO bench press, pause or concentric bench press.

[quote]surfninja311 wrote:
I was using flies as an example actually. However they due add to my chest development along with many other heavy pressing exercises I’ve preformed over the last 5 years. The also help in prevention of injury to the chest/shoulder tie in.

Feel free to post pictures of your chest development and teach me your knowledgeable ways… [/quote]

Flies will do more to hurt than help what you’re talking about.

I actually rehabbed my right shoulder tie in with forms of flies, Iso holds and modified band flies but feel free to hypothesize when you’ve never been there. I’ll always include them as a preventative, just like band curls and Iso holds have done wonders for my tendinitis I start with them at the beginning of any pressing day. For those of you suffer with pain on the inside of the elbow I really suggest you try it.

rmccart1 I do plan on adding in more full ROM work. At the moment my sticking point is about 5 inches off my chest. Floor presses and 2-3 board presses are actually showing a large benefit.

Rehab is not exactly prevention, is it?

Are you just listing all the assistance exercises you plan on rotating through, or are you actually doing 6-8 movements each session.

As far as what has been said about lower body hypertrophy day, I also find that my lower body needs much less volume, but my back needs much more. So I do extra back work on lower body days in place most lower body assistance.

For those of you who insist the volume is to high heres Kaz’s program. You can also look at the metal militias raw bench routine and countless other time tested powerlifting routines with high volume. People have to remember there is more then one way to train.

The Bulgarian’s in there prime trained for 8 hours a day.

Jeff Magruder’s bench routine along with countless others included flies and fly variations.

I do apologize for writing this because there have been quite a few helpful posts as well.

Monday

Bench (heavy) warm up, then 4 sets x 10 reps
Wide Grip Bench 3 sets x 10 reps
Narrow Grip Bench 3 sets x 10 reps
Front Delt Raise 4 sets x 8 reps
Dumbell Seated Press 4 sets x 10 reps
Side Delt Raise 4 sets x 10 reps
Lying Tricep Push (after 2 warm up sets) 6 sets x 10 reps
Tricep Push Down 4 sets x 10 reps

Tuesday

Squat (heavy) warm up, then 4 sets x 10 reps
Deadlift (light) warm up, then 3 sets x 10 reps
Shrugs 2 sets x 15-40 reps, 1 set x 10-20 reps
Seated Hammer Curls 4 sets x 12 reps
Standing Curl 4 sets x 10 reps
Close Grip Chin Ups 3 sets x max on each set
Seated Row 4 sets x 10 reps
Leg Extensions 3 sets x 10 reps
Leg Curl 3 sets x 10 reps
Calf Raise 3 sets x 15-25 reps

Thursday

Bench (light) warm up, then 3 sets x 10 reps
Wide Grip Bench 3 sets x 10 reps
Narrow Grip Bench 3 sets x 10 reps
Dumbell Seated Press (heavy) warm up, then 4 sets x 8 reps
Front Delt Raise 4 sets x 10 reps
Tennis Backhand Cable Extensions 4 sets x 10 reps
Prone Tricep Extension 4 sets x 10 reps

Saturday

Deadlift (heavy) warm up, then 4 sets x 8 reps
Squat (light) warm up, then 4 sets x10 reps
Shrugs (heavy) 4 sets x 10-15 reps
Seated Hammer Curl 4 sets x 8 reps
Concentration Curl 4 sets x 12 reps
One Arm Row - 3 positions 3 sets x 10 reps
Wide Grip Pull (down to chest) 4 sets x 10 reps
Leg Extensions 3 sets x 10 reps
Leg Curl 3 sets x 10 reps
Calf Raise 3 sets x 15-25 reps
(Ab Work When Possible)

[quote]Wayland wrote:
Distinct lack of balance between pressing and pulling movements[/quote]

Thanks, I threw in some chest supported rows and DB rows

[quote]surfninja311 wrote:
For those of you who insist the volume is to high heres Kaz’s program. You can also look at the metal militias raw bench routine and countless other time tested powerlifting routines with high volume. People have to remember there is more then one way to train.

The Bulgarian’s in there prime trained for 8 hours a day.

Jeff Magruder’s bench routine along with countless others included flies and fly variations.

I do apologize for writing this because there have been quite a few helpful posts as well.

Monday

Bench (heavy) warm up, then 4 sets x 10 reps
Wide Grip Bench 3 sets x 10 reps
Narrow Grip Bench 3 sets x 10 reps
Front Delt Raise 4 sets x 8 reps
Dumbell Seated Press 4 sets x 10 reps
Side Delt Raise 4 sets x 10 reps
Lying Tricep Push (after 2 warm up sets) 6 sets x 10 reps
Tricep Push Down 4 sets x 10 reps

Tuesday

Squat (heavy) warm up, then 4 sets x 10 reps
Deadlift (light) warm up, then 3 sets x 10 reps
Shrugs 2 sets x 15-40 reps, 1 set x 10-20 reps
Seated Hammer Curls 4 sets x 12 reps
Standing Curl 4 sets x 10 reps
Close Grip Chin Ups 3 sets x max on each set
Seated Row 4 sets x 10 reps
Leg Extensions 3 sets x 10 reps
Leg Curl 3 sets x 10 reps
Calf Raise 3 sets x 15-25 reps

Thursday

Bench (light) warm up, then 3 sets x 10 reps
Wide Grip Bench 3 sets x 10 reps
Narrow Grip Bench 3 sets x 10 reps
Dumbell Seated Press (heavy) warm up, then 4 sets x 8 reps
Front Delt Raise 4 sets x 10 reps
Tennis Backhand Cable Extensions 4 sets x 10 reps
Prone Tricep Extension 4 sets x 10 reps

Saturday

Deadlift (heavy) warm up, then 4 sets x 8 reps
Squat (light) warm up, then 4 sets x10 reps
Shrugs (heavy) 4 sets x 10-15 reps
Seated Hammer Curl 4 sets x 8 reps
Concentration Curl 4 sets x 12 reps
One Arm Row - 3 positions 3 sets x 10 reps
Wide Grip Pull (down to chest) 4 sets x 10 reps
Leg Extensions 3 sets x 10 reps
Leg Curl 3 sets x 10 reps
Calf Raise 3 sets x 15-25 reps
(Ab Work When Possible)
[/quote]

Sorry to break it to you, but you’re not Bill Kazmier. You’re not a Bulgarian weightlifter, and you’re not one of Bill Crawford or Seb Burns crew.

You seem to have made your choice as to what you’re doing inspite of everyone’s advice. It would appear you were just looking for a rubber stamp, and having not received it you’ve decided to prove you’re “right” by citing high volume training cycles used by the worlds best.

Here’s some news, you’re not the worlds best. There’s very few of us here that are even close to that level. Instead of looking at what they’re doing now, find out how they got there. The Bulgarian’s didn’t just straight into 6x a day training. The MM guys didn’t just start doing probably 40-50 sets on the bench each week. They build up to them. And their approaches as you pointed out are tried and tested. Yours is not.

It REALLY looks like you have volume for volumes sake. If you were training everything as hard as you could there’d be no need for all that extra volume. I’m seeing great results from just using 4/5 different exercises instead of the 6-8 I had been doing, and just hitting the smaller number as hard as I possibly can each and every time. Trust me, if you’re doing this you won’t be crying out for more volume.

Alot of people who’ve given advice here are a lot stronger than you. I’d be willing to bet they weren’t just born that way. It took hard work and intelligent programming. Maybe you should listen to the suggestions.

[quote]Hanley wrote:
surfninja311 wrote:
For those of you who insist the volume is to high heres Kaz’s program. You can also look at the metal militias raw bench routine and countless other time tested powerlifting routines with high volume. People have to remember there is more then one way to train.

The Bulgarian’s in there prime trained for 8 hours a day.

Jeff Magruder’s bench routine along with countless others included flies and fly variations.

I do apologize for writing this because there have been quite a few helpful posts as well.

Monday

Bench (heavy) warm up, then 4 sets x 10 reps
Wide Grip Bench 3 sets x 10 reps
Narrow Grip Bench 3 sets x 10 reps
Front Delt Raise 4 sets x 8 reps
Dumbell Seated Press 4 sets x 10 reps
Side Delt Raise 4 sets x 10 reps
Lying Tricep Push (after 2 warm up sets) 6 sets x 10 reps
Tricep Push Down 4 sets x 10 reps

Tuesday

Squat (heavy) warm up, then 4 sets x 10 reps
Deadlift (light) warm up, then 3 sets x 10 reps
Shrugs 2 sets x 15-40 reps, 1 set x 10-20 reps
Seated Hammer Curls 4 sets x 12 reps
Standing Curl 4 sets x 10 reps
Close Grip Chin Ups 3 sets x max on each set
Seated Row 4 sets x 10 reps
Leg Extensions 3 sets x 10 reps
Leg Curl 3 sets x 10 reps
Calf Raise 3 sets x 15-25 reps

Thursday

Bench (light) warm up, then 3 sets x 10 reps
Wide Grip Bench 3 sets x 10 reps
Narrow Grip Bench 3 sets x 10 reps
Dumbell Seated Press (heavy) warm up, then 4 sets x 8 reps
Front Delt Raise 4 sets x 10 reps
Tennis Backhand Cable Extensions 4 sets x 10 reps
Prone Tricep Extension 4 sets x 10 reps

Saturday

Deadlift (heavy) warm up, then 4 sets x 8 reps
Squat (light) warm up, then 4 sets x10 reps
Shrugs (heavy) 4 sets x 10-15 reps
Seated Hammer Curl 4 sets x 8 reps
Concentration Curl 4 sets x 12 reps
One Arm Row - 3 positions 3 sets x 10 reps
Wide Grip Pull (down to chest) 4 sets x 10 reps
Leg Extensions 3 sets x 10 reps
Leg Curl 3 sets x 10 reps
Calf Raise 3 sets x 15-25 reps
(Ab Work When Possible)

Sorry to break it to you, but you’re not Bill Kazmier. You’re not a Bulgarian weightlifter, and you’re not one of Bill Crawford or Seb Burns crew.

You seem to have made your choice as to what you’re doing inspite of everyone’s advice. It would appear you were just looking for a rubber stamp, and having not received it you’ve decided to prove you’re “right” by citing high volume training cycles used by the worlds best.

Here’s some news, you’re not the worlds best. There’s very few of us here that are even close to that level. Instead of looking at what they’re doing now, find out how they got there. The Bulgarian’s didn’t just straight into 6x a day training. The MM guys didn’t just start doing probably 40-50 sets on the bench each week. They build up to them. And their approaches as you pointed out are tried and tested. Yours is not.

It REALLY looks like you have volume for volumes sake. If you were training everything as hard as you could there’d be no need for all that extra volume. I’m seeing great results from just using 4/5 different exercises instead of the 6-8 I had been doing, and just hitting the smaller number as hard as I possibly can each and every time. Trust me, if you’re doing this you won’t be crying out for more volume.

Alot of people who’ve given advice here are a lot stronger than you. I’d be willing to bet they weren’t just born that way. It took hard work and intelligent programming. Maybe you should listen to the suggestions.[/quote]

Your not Sheiko but you follow his programming. As far as I know the numerous people on the site that follow westside protocols aren’t Louie Simmons or world ranked powerlifters.

Sorry Hanley but if you want to start preaching “don’t follow professional programs” maybe you should take your own advice, make your own program, and go preach to the rest in the westside powerlifting thread. I’m not overtraining I know this because I’m progressing. It doesn’t even seem you have the experience to know what your talking about.

Maybe you should quit posting 300 times a day increase your volume and you wouldn’t be so damn skinny?

Hanley is right, you know. As usual.

Also he’s a lot stronger than you. Not to turn this into a pissing match but, you know, he knows what he’s talking about. Also, I’d be willing to bet he really doesn’t give a shit what you do. He’s not trying to boss you around, he’s just trying to help you, and you’re insulting him. Maybe YOU should actually do the damn program if you’re convinced it will work, and quit looking for a pat on the back.

Hanley gave you some good advice.
Think it over…

[quote]surfninja311 wrote:

Your not Sheiko but you follow his programming. As far as I know the numerous people on the site that follow westside protocols aren’t Louie Simmons or world ranked powerlifters.

Sorry Hanley but if you want to start preaching “don’t follow professional programs” maybe you should take your own advice, make your own program, and go preach to the rest in the westside powerlifting thread. I’m not overtraining I know this because I’m progressing. It doesn’t even seem you have the experience to know what your talking about.

Maybe you should quit posting 300 times a day increase your volume and you wouldn’t be so damn skinny?
[/quote]

Ohhhhh… A pissing match. I love these!!

First off, it’s “you’re”. As in “you are”.

I’ve run two Sheiko cycles. And I acknowledged that running the MS/CMS cycle was at the time a mistake because it was not for someone of my ranking.

Like Sheiko, westside is a TEMPLATE. You modify it to suit your needs. It is NOT a “program”. It would seem you don’t have the experience to know what you’re talking about.

You know what the real kicker is tho? You’re argument is a complete house of cards. You’re not talking about following a “professional” program. You’re talking about one of your own creation.

I really could not give a shit what you do with your training. You posted looking for advice, and I gave it. Alot of people agreed or said something to similar to what I did, and I don’t think anyone said what you’re doing looks good. Maybe we’re all wrong and you’ve uncovered the magical forumla. If that’s the case then more power to you and I hope you succeed with it.

My one question would be, with 5 years training, and weighing 190lb in single digit bodyfat, why aren’t you stronger than you are already? You don’t even pull double bodyweight… My 60kg girlfriend will have done that with only 12 months of training in July. Maybe your program isn’t so hot after all?

As for being skinny… At least you got ONE thing right in your post. Actually, I’ll give you a chance to reconsider;
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y143/Jameshanley/Photo403.jpg