Westside for Olympic Lifting

[quote]Invictica wrote:
Otep wrote:
This may be my inexperience showing, but how does snatching at 60-70% create a training effect? For me, I can practically do that in my sleep (max 215 lbs, so 60% is ~135).

Developing the skill of weightlifting. In Olympic Lifting form is as important, if not more important, as strength. Both are very important but form can be a huge limiting factor in the amount of weight you lift. While strength can be developed through placing your body through stress (regular training) form of such dynamic movements are only developed through consistent practice. That’s where lifting at submaximal weights comes into play.

By lifting an easy weight with perfect form, your body is more likely to repeat this motion at higher weights. Of course each workout goes up to 80-90%, so each training session will allow a trainee to work on strength and form. I’ve always been told your body and the bar should move the same way whether you are snatching a broom stick or your 1RM. [/quote]

well said.

I was under the impression Travis was not training for bobsled.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Hanley wrote:
Why?

Can you be more specific with your question?[/quote]

Why would you use something that recommends NOT doing the competition lifts when most weightlifters miss lifts because of their form, not their strength…?

[quote]Hanley wrote:
Why would you use something that recommends NOT doing the competition lifts when most weightlifters miss lifts because of their form, not their strength…?
[/quote]

I wouldn’t…I am just looking for the most effective periodization method. That’s all. I used the term “Westside” only for the benefit of making it understood that I reject the concept of linear periodization.

Besides, I am very new to this sport so I would most definitely benefit from doing more rather than less lifts.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Hanley wrote:
Why would you use something that recommends NOT doing the competition lifts when most weightlifters miss lifts because of their form, not their strength…?

I wouldn’t…I am just looking for the most effective periodization method. That’s all. I used the term “Westside” only for the benefit of making it understood that I reject the concept of linear periodization.

Besides, I am very new to this sport so I would most definitely benefit from doing more rather than less lifts.[/quote]

Why do you reject the idea of linear periodisation?

What sorta numbers are you squatting, front squatting and deadlifting?

How’s your form on the oly lifts? What sorta numbers are you putting up there?

the conjugate method as stated above was crafted on Eastern Bloc athletes training methods, probably most notably Vasily Alexyev(sp?). While training in this style you would be doing the oly lifts, but only doing them on DE day, on ME day you are doing strength building exercises like defficit deadlifts, snatch grip DL’s and front squats.

Doing the actual lifts on DE day will teach form, and on DE day resistance is added just like in powerlifting, either reverse bands or even, a personal favorite, the way Alexyev used to do it, lifting the weights from under waist height water, either way just finding a way to increase the speed of the lift.

It is definately one way to go, but, as I believe Hanley is trying to say, linear periodisation is a good way to train as well, especially in the beginning, “Everything works, nothing works forever.” Louie Simmons

[quote]Kansky wrote:
the conjugate method as stated above was crafted on Eastern Bloc athletes training methods, probably most notably Vasily Alexyev(sp?).[/quote]

He came out of the Spartakiade era, but I read quite a few articles about him and it appeared that he trained himself away from the team and didn’t follow the same system as all the other lifters.

What was famous about his training and what Louie took from it was his theory about constantly needing to increase his work capacity and that the increase in work capacity was the reason his totals increased.

I’d say the most notable lifters out of that Conjugate Era would be Pisarenko, Rigert, and Vardanian off the top of my head.

Jim O’Malley’s stuff on Roman’s work is pretty useful, and 90% of it is applicable without having The Training of the Weightlifter. This article is particularly good:

Another option would be to combine the kind of weekly volume distribution that O’Malley/Roman talk about with a Polish-style “2 steps forwards, 1 step back” monthly progression. Let’s say you can hit 80% lifts without even thinking about it, and with good form, and 85% lifts rarely feature errors. You’d then lay out your 2 monthly schedule something like this:

Wk 1: 85% moderate volume
Wk 2: 90% highest volume
Wk 3: 80% lowest volume
Wk 4: 95% second lowest volume, test maxes if lifting well
Wk 5: 85% moderate volume
Wk 6: 92% highest volume
Wk 7: 80% lowest volume
Wk 8: 100% second lowest volume, test maxes

If you were training 3 days a week you’d train both lifts every session. Monday would be snatch up to that week’s max, C&J up to 80%, squat; Wednesday would be snatch and C&J up to 80%, low volume, and a squat; Friday would be snatch up to 80%, C&J up to that week’s max, squat. Assistance added according to individual weaknesses.

I remember Louie Simmons writing one, maybe two articles, in MILO back in the mid 1990’s.

I would check The Ironmind website for back issues of Milo. I think they list the topic covered in each issue.

I would stick to time-proven weightlifting methods. Weightlifting is not a sport you can practice successfully without a coach anyway, so you should really look into a weightlifting club in your area, and do as you are told.

[quote]daraz wrote:
Weightlifting is not a sport you can practice successfully without a coach anyway… [/quote]

Oh Really?

[quote]Otep wrote:
daraz wrote:
Weightlifting is not a sport you can practice successfully without a coach anyway…

Oh Really?[/quote]

Is there any system that would itself be the equivalent of Westside but specifically for Olympic lifting? Or is Westside applicable to everything?

[quote]Otep wrote:
daraz wrote:
Weightlifting is not a sport you can practice successfully without a coach anyway…

Oh Really?[/quote]

I guess it would depend on your definition of “successfully”.

[quote]Regular Gonzalez wrote:
Otep wrote:
daraz wrote:
Weightlifting is not a sport you can practice successfully without a coach anyway…

Oh Really?

I guess it would depend on your definition of “successfully”.

[/quote]

I’ll allow that every competitor at the 2008 Olympics in weightlifting had a coach. So after a certain point, yeah, it becomes necessary.

But taken to the other end, there’s a number of posters who act like the oly lifts are some type of holy grail whose keys are held only by the select few bulgarian lifters-turned-old-and-now-coaching, because they’re the only ones who can instruct young padwon’s in the oly-arts. And I think that is… a bit of a stretch.

I live in Austin. The only Oly gym closed down (about a year ago, I’d guess, but definitely 6+mo). There’s no one to teach me how to do this except youtube and experience. So do I curl up into a ball and cry myself to sleep?

[quote]Otep wrote:
Regular Gonzalez wrote:
Otep wrote:
daraz wrote:
Weightlifting is not a sport you can practice successfully without a coach anyway…

Oh Really?

I guess it would depend on your definition of “successfully”.

I’ll allow that every competitor at the 2008 Olympics in weightlifting had a coach. So after a certain point, yeah, it becomes necessary.

But taken to the other end, there’s a number of posters who act like the oly lifts are some type of holy grail whose keys are held only by the select few bulgarian lifters-turned-old-and-now-coaching, because they’re the only ones who can instruct young padwon’s in the oly-arts. And I think that is… a bit of a stretch.

I live in Austin. The only Oly gym closed down (about a year ago, I’d guess, but definitely 6+mo). There’s no one to teach me how to do this except youtube and experience. So do I curl up into a ball and cry myself to sleep?[/quote]

You don’t necessarily need a coach. But alot of people have done it on their own, then got a coach and realized it was a much better that way. Its hard to clump olympic lifting into the same class as something like bodybuilding since it requires a much higher level of athleticism. That being said, it is fairly inadaquete to do it alone, since there are many elements you cannot keep track of unless you have an outside viewer such as a coach.

It is easy to develop bad habits since the movements are so dynamic and people will rarely pick up signs that they are doing something wrong. This will perpetuate leading to larger problems down the road. Furthermore, resources on Olympic Lifting programming is scarce. So when it comes to program design, a coach is highly recommended. With a coach, given that he is experienced and has done olympic lifting himself, you can be sure that any prescribed programming and modifications he makes will help you advance to the next level.

Yes, people can practice Olympic Lifting on their own. And you don’t need the Mystic Teachings of a Bulgarian Yoda Weightlifting Master, but there are many many elements that coachless lifters will miss on without Yoda. And to be actually competitive in Olympic Lifting, a coach is highly recommended. If you are Olympic Lifting just for fun, you probably don’t need a coach, but it helps. If you’re gonna compete, you need a coach.

Hell to compete in ANYTHING you need a coach.

Even badass fucking actors who’ve won pages and pages of accolades still have acting coaches.

You don’t NEED an oly coach if you’re just lifting essentially for shits and giggles but if you want to be any good then you do need a coach.

In your situation Otep i’d say this… How important is Olifting to you. If you want to (i have no idea how) make a living doing it you’ll make it your #1 priority, sacrifice everything and just do it. Even if thats driving 2-3hrs each way just to train.

So for those who say you CAN"T learn how to olift without a coach…fuck 'em. It’s no the most efficient but you do what you have to.

[quote]Kansky wrote:
the conjugate method as stated above was crafted on Eastern Bloc athletes training methods, probably most notably Vasily Alexyev(sp?). While training in this style you would be doing the oly lifts, but only doing them on DE day, on ME day you are doing strength building exercises like defficit deadlifts, snatch grip DL’s and front squats.

Doing the actual lifts on DE day will teach form, and on DE day resistance is added just like in powerlifting, either reverse bands or even, a personal favorite, the way Alexyev used to do it, lifting the weights from under waist height water, either way just finding a way to increase the speed of the lift.

It is definately one way to go, but, as I believe Hanley is trying to say, linear periodisation is a good way to train as well, especially in the beginning, “Everything works, nothing works forever.” Louie Simmons[/quote]

This is the closest thing to an answer in this thread. But I don’t know if it’s right or if it’s just what Kansky thinks is the logical way to set things up. Kansky, do you have a source? I’d like to read more. But if you don’t…

Does ANYONE know what the Dynamo Barbell Club was doing back in the USSR? I can’t find it anywhere. How do Weightlifters use the “conjugate method?” Every program I’ve ever seen is linear periodization.

From what I understand, it was the Eastern Bloc Track & Field athletes who brought the conjugate method, board presses, and box squats over to the Original Westside Barbell in Culver City California. The Dave Draper Website has an article or two on this. I don’t think they were doing speed squats over at the original Westside Barbell Just yet - I believethat was Lou’s contribution. The article I read indicated that they were still doing Power Cleans for developing explosive power.

If you read over at James Smith’s Power Development Inc. Website (he’s the Thinker on EliteFTS Q&A) apparently the conjugate method was used in ALL sports for the USSR. Swimming, Track & Field, Weightlifitng, whatever.

From what I can piece together from the 1 Russian Text I’ve read, which doesn’t say much about the conjugate method other than that it’s “really good” is that…

(1) The Max Effort Work would be maxing out in a lift very similar to a competition lift. You might max out in a snatch off blocks, or a behind the neck jerk, or a power clean, or even a squat. Unlike Westside where you can literally come up with oodles of different Max Effort lifts, I think the russians concentrated on the Power Clean, Power Snatch, and Squat. I forget where I read it, but I think they only used about 6 different Max Effort Exercises.

(2) Squats, Bench Presses, Incline Presses, and Overhead Presses were done as assistance work.

(3) Workouts were not split into upper body or lower body since the max effort lifts and the competition lifts are all full body lifts.

(4) Dynamic Work (What they call speed strength) was either Jump/Depth Jump/what we would call plyometric training or it was Competition Lifts done between 85-95% of one’s max.

Of course, this could all be wrong. But I’d love to know the right answer. What were these guys doing?

Alexeev also used to lift 2-3 times a day every single day for months on end and took a huge amount of anabolics. I don’t think the training of elite Olympic weightlifers, especially someone like Alexeev whose methods are largely unknown even among the Soviets themselves (Taranenko freely admitted this in an interview) should be something to model your training off of.

Also all of this conjugate stuff among weightlifters sounds somewhat speculative and like a generalization of their methods. All of these lifters did the competition lifts pretty much every single day they trained. Maybe they used some other split or progression for their assistance lifting but nearly every training day was DE day and Olympic lifting day and I don’t think there are any exceptions. Increasing the work capacity is more along the lines of the Sheiko theory: that the maximum number of lifts with the highest intensity that can be sustained over the period of a year will yield the best results; the volumetric approach, and this seems far more applicable to weightlifting than any conjugate related training systems, and it is also how many elite lifters train (Bulgarians being the most obvious example nowadays).

And many of the soviets never did plyometric work or any jumps at all. Alexeev just did whatever the hell he felt like because he was an insane freak and never had a coach or trained with anyone.

fucking good stuff fighting scott