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Westside Confusion

could anyone help me out with westside training? i am confused on how to work both squatting and deadlifting into a westside template. meaning, i want to bench, squat, and deadlift all in the same week…but im getting confused as to how to do that.

i have been looking at the WS4SB template and the WS for BBuilders template. i want to get bigger, stronger, and i want squatting, deadlifting, and benching in my routine. basically i want to be well balanced.

thanks.

sunday and wednesday are DE and ME bench respectively, Friday is DE squat/dl, generally do box squats 10x2 at 60% for speed then do supplemental work and assistance work, then on monday do ME squat/dl, one week can be squat max then next week can be dead max. on fridays you can supplement with some sort of deadlift, rack pull or even something off a platform.

there is quite a crossover from squat to dl.
anymore info go to www.elitefts.com and read on the conjugate method articles

the way westside is set up is:

max effort upper: some form of benching

max effort lower: Deadlifting can be put hear, ( i usually deaddlift here). But also, GM’s, squats.

Dynamic/Repition upper: dynamic benching, or benching using the repition method)

Dynamic/repition Lower:Which is often box squating. but can include speed pulls aswell.

pm me if you need more help setting up a templet.

Honestly, other than for DE workouts, most people won’t do full deadlifts as a Max Effort exercise. It’s simply too demanding on the body and CNS and takes to long to recover from. Instead, they will pick an exercise that works the weak portion of the lift.

For example, if you’re weak off the floor, you’d stand on a few inch box, if you’re weak at lockout, you’d do rack pulls.

And as said before, if you’re squatting powerlifting style using a hip-break squat and sitting far back (especially box squatting), you’ll be taxing the posterior chain; glutes, erectors, and hamstrings. Therefore, you’ll be working the same muscles that are required in your deadlifts.

-MAtt

[quote]Matgic wrote:
Honestly, other than for DE workouts, most people won’t do full deadlifts as a Max Effort exercise. It’s simply too demanding on the body and CNS and takes to long to recover from. Instead, they will pick an exercise that works the weak portion of the lift.

For example, if you’re weak off the floor, you’d stand on a few inch box, if you’re weak at lockout, you’d do rack pulls.

And as said before, if you’re squatting powerlifting style using a hip-break squat and sitting far back (especially box squatting), you’ll be taxing the posterior chain; glutes, erectors, and hamstrings. Therefore, you’ll be working the same muscles that are required in your deadlifts.

-MAtt[/quote]

Yes this is correct but I still cant not DL and feel one should or atleast I should. There for I now moving to a more typical ME/DE westside format will be cycling DL and squat variations. me will roatate weekly between a squat and a dl as will the DE if I ME squat I will DE pull or clean, If I ME DL then I will DE box squat. etc always getting a DL and Squat in each week.

Will it work ill tell you in a few months like all else looks good on paper.

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/frequent_pulling.htm

what i do is alternate max effort deads and squats from week to week. and also for de work, i’ll do speed box squats and the next week speed deads. ocasionally i’ll do speed deads after max effort squats that’s usually during a deload week then I’ll usually do a low back exercise and that’s it when deloading

thanks for the replies everyone.

i was going to just go with the WS4SB this week, since i understand that, but once i got to the gym i said fuck it.

so i did the basic westside template with squats and deads.

i did box squats first and then regular deads. i have to say, doing squats first did take a little away from the deads. had i not done the squats first, i feel i could have bumped the weight up another 30 or so lbs for a final set of 3.

so, as far as recovery goes, obviously i cant tell yet, but i will try doing this, as i liked it very much. what i think i will do is switch off every other week, doing box squats first one week, deads first the next. perhaps i will even do box squats first for two weeks, deads first for two weeks, etc. i understand that squats offer quite a good carry over, but i love doing deads, and if this works for me, recovery wise, im going to give it a go. if im burnt out in a couple weeks ill definitely go with the suggestion to simply cycle between the two.

anyway, thanks everyone, and any responses to what ive done would be appreciated as well. thanks.

I really don’t think going heavy on box squats and deadlifts in the same session is a great idea. You can try it if you want, but like you noticed, your second exercise will be greatly compromised in terms of the loads that you can use. You will not (I can almost guarantee) get the full benefit of doing squats or deadlifts if you are doing the full version both in one session. Deadlifts first and then squats after are even harder in my opinion. Good luck though.

-MAtt

[quote]Matgic wrote:
I really don’t think going heavy on box squats and deadlifts in the same session is a great idea. You can try it if you want, but like you noticed, your second exercise will be greatly compromised in terms of the loads that you can use. You will not (I can almost guarantee) get the full benefit of doing squats or deadlifts if you are doing the full version both in one session. Deadlifts first and then squats after are even harder in my opinion. Good luck though.

-MAtt[/quote]

i agree with you. as you said, i noted that myself. this just might be where i am dumbing up, but if i can push one exercise to 100% “effort” and the other to 90%, would that not be better than simply doing the one to 100%? (and im not speaking of %'s of maxes here, im speaking in terms of “what ive got left in the tank”…i hope that doesnt cause confusion.

i dont know, i have deadlifted in the same workout and benching, and squatted in the same as benching, but i dont think ive ever squatted and deadlifted in the same workout. i am curious to see how it works out. i really did enjoy the workout though, i left the gym feeling like i had just kicked my ass harder than i had in a while, then i went home and slammed a 1000 calorie shake and a 200cal yogurt, just to “carb my face off”…about an hour later i had a huge ribeye steak, teriaki rice, corn, and ceasar salad…yea, probably too many carbs, but im bulking!

all in all, i kicked the eating into higher gear recently, and i feel like i did so with my workout today as well. i am excited to stick with the westside style, even if i dont keep up the squats and deads on the same day. i am ~202lbs right now, looking for 225lbs around february. i am excited and motivated. its going to be a good year.

Well, there’s no doubt that doing those together would kick your ass. Kicking your ass can be more condusive to bodybuilding than to powerlifting or other strenth sports because of how efficient your CNS is working is so much more important for the latter.

Take the box squat for example. If you were trying to reach a 1RM for the day, you would probably follow a low volume warmup perhaps with a rep progression of 5, 3, 2, 1, 1, 1 or something similiar. If you did 10, 10, 8, 5, 5, 1 the latter workout would be “harder” but you wouldn’t be lifting nearly as much weight on that last attempt because you tired yourself out. Add in a few hill sprints before that attempt and you’ve got one tough workout. But, it’s not going to allow you to express your full potential in that lift because you will not be fresh.

Not to mention, the more fatigued you become, the worse your form ends up being, and your nervous system will remember it that way. With the wrong form that is. Part of the reason that you are doing the lifts are to learn the correct form. Not only could it be harmful to your technical proficiency, but if your lower back is already fatigued, you could just be asking for injury by moving in to deadlifts.

Run a search of Robertson’s “Designer Athletes” article. It includes a heavy squat and heavy deadlift variation in the same workout. Might be more up your alley.

And maxing on bench and then squats is different than squats and deadlifts. Squats and deads work many of the same muscles. It’d be like doing 300 pushups and then going into a ME bench workout. You won’t be able to fully express your levels of strength because of fatigue. Just something to think about.

-MAtt

[quote]Matgic wrote:
Well, there’s no doubt that doing those together would kick your ass. Kicking your ass can be more condusive to bodybuilding than to powerlifting or other strenth sports because of how efficient your CNS is working is so much more important for the latter.

Not to mention, the more fatigued you become, the worse your form ends up being, and your nervous system will remember it that way. With the wrong form that is. Part of the reason that you are doing the lifts are to learn the correct form. Not only could it be harmful to your technical proficiency, but if your lower back is already fatigued, you could just be asking for injury by moving in to deadlifts.

the technical proficiency was something i definitely was not considering. thank you for bringing that to light for me. i definitely dont want to teach my body to become less proficient at whichever lift i am putting in 2nd. very, very good point.

so, in your opinion, would it be better to cycle squats and deads every other week for 4-6 weeks, or cycle it say two weeks squat, followed by two weeks deads?

thanks again, i appreciate it.

What do you all think of doing something more like an olympic lift IN PLACE of DE dead/squat. I was thinking doing something like power/hang cleans or so b/c I feel like i dont get much out of any DE work.

Or what about some Olympic work followed by DE squat/dl? Thanks…

[quote]coolnatedawg wrote:
What do you all think of doing something more like an olympic lift IN PLACE of DE dead/squat. I was thinking doing something like power/hang cleans or so b/c I feel like i dont get much out of any DE work.

Or what about some Olympic work followed by DE squat/dl? Thanks…[/quote]

Yes power cleans etc IMO are great and can tranfer speed to both the DL and Squat.

anyone know where i can find the standard template including the #of sets and reps for all exercises after the the ME? such as the assistance movements?

www.elitefts.com/documents/template.htm

this is the one that i found, but im sure there is one that just gives the rundown of the template with sets/reps SPELLED OUT…i tend to get a little dump when new programs arent just layed out for me.

anyway, if anyone knows where it is, id really appreciate it. thanks

Squats and deadlifts in the same session is absolutely fine, it’s what Andy Bolton does for example, and almost all the Russian powerlifters.

Don’t bother with Westside if you want a good deadlift. If you want a massive deadlift you need to work your ass off at deadlifting.