[quote]rabell59 wrote:
[quote]colt44 wrote:
[quote]rabell59 wrote:
[quote]ThermalWarrior wrote:
(No more highlight when the deadlift record when last year by a guy wearing shorts and vest). [/quote]
Thanks for the reply. Not sure what you meant by this last sentence (no more highlight).
I believe Simmons has many good ideas but what I am thinking is it is really not that revolutionary. Here is what I mean.
Standard Powerlifting Workout
Monday
Heavy bench using 8s, 5s or 3s. Peak 3-6 weeks using 2s and singles
Triceps
Shoulders
Lats
Assistance Reps 3-5 sets 5-8 reps per set. Sometimes up to 12.
Some lifters would do 2 exercises per bodypart which could lead to overtrainig
Tuesday
Heavy Squat
Leg Press
Leg Curls
Calves
Similar on assistance reps and sets as Monday
Thursday
Light Bench 3x8 Problem frequently lifter goes to heavy
Same assistance. Reps maybe same as Monday though should be lighter weight or lighter weight reps in 10-12 range
Friday
Heavy DL
Light Squat working up to light weight for 1x8. Frequently lifter goes to heavy
Maybe some rack work
Assistance similar to squat day
Major differences I see to this and WSB is the additions of a “special exercise”. This exercise replaces heavy bench and and heavy squat. Most important part of this is that the exercise chosen has to focus on lifters weakness and focuses on getting stronger in this area. Only concern would be overtraining particularly for the natural raw lifter.
Speed work (or lifting explosively as it used to be called) is a great idea that should be focused on. The box squats done go back to at least the 1970s maybe 60s. A couple of lifters who developed this where "Peanuts) (can’t remember his last name) and Marv Philips. They did the rocking box squat I see WS lifters utilizing but for more reps and heavier weight.
Also looking at what Dave Tate has written assistance is usually limited to one exercise per bodypart for 3a-5 sets of varying reps. This should help reduce tendency of overtraining. Varying reps is also used on the standard powerlifting routine.
Percentages also a great idea and very beneficial for someone who doesn’t have a coach or the experience to know when they are overdoing it. In watching videos of WS lifters training and listening to Louie explain the system I feel it is more like a way of training that requires a good understanding of lifter weakenesses and different training techniques. I think for many lifters who use it successfully it probably helped them to stop overtraining and focus on their weaknesses instead of just doing any assistance work. The special exercises target the areas that most all of us struggle with and give a way to use exercises that will help them the most.
I think the other big benefit for WSB lifters is having Louie there to watch and coach. That is irreplaceable. I believe most of the lifters there were already elite or well on their way. They had a great base and then the coach made the adjustments necessary to take them to the next level.
So what I have wondered is if WS is really that much of a total revolution or more of an improvement. The reason I question this is because the lifts have gone up as the technology (suits, briefs, shorts) has improved. So it is really all because of the training or much of it from the technology?[/quote]
I think you have oversimplified the “Westside” method. Let me break down the major differences compared to more traditional schemes.
Consistently lifts at high percentage year round.
Uses HUNDREDS of lifts.
Uses variations of the main lifts, rather than the competitive lifts themselves until near competition.
Uses methods of accomodating resistance ergo: bands/chains, throughout EVERY training cycle.
Higher density of training, such that maximal lifts are performed with relativley little rest, compared to traditional long rest periods between max. lifting.
Typical volume of a maximal effort session in a traditional scheme was 2-4 sets (+/-1) generally speaking. The opposite holds true even going up to twelve sets.
Dynamic Effort methods aka speed sessions every week.
pulling sleds
Larger emphasis placed on GPP than usual.
Greater emphasis on back which led to many variations of good mornings.
Huge variety in barbells used.
I’m too tired to continue.
Oh and I saw louie pull 700 in briefs at 62 years old at Westside, looked pretty strong to me;)
[/quote]
I agree the special exercises have been a great addition and very original. Several of the items you listed relate to these and I felt this was implied. I should have been more clear. As far as rest periods I thought that on max efforts WS can go up to 5 minutes or longer. Also on speed day the videos I have seen of actual WS lifters doing them show upwards of 8 to 10 people rotating in so I question if the 45 to 60 second time period is a fast rule. I haven’t been there I am only going on what they have posted.
The 720 pull by Louie is impressive by any account and as I have said they do have some very good numbers regarding the DL. The question I have is again why the DL number has not increased like the Squat and Bench which are both heavily influenced by the gear technology.
This is a good system. I am not saying it isn’t. What I am asking if it is so good as some people say and the best system out there why does it not translate over to DL. Principles should apply to all lifts not just two. And again the two that are focused on, which produce these incredible numbers, are both based on gear technology.
I have also included more in my answer to louiek earlier.
I started this thread because I keep reading people trashing other systems and seeming to indicate that WS is the holy grail of powerlifting training. As I have said I think it is a good system with alot of great points that I have listed and you have expanded upon. But what I don’t see is that some people don’t seem to get the principles and focus only on the execution. I am just trying to see if I am missing something because the DL numbers keep standing out to me as a glaring exception.
[/quote]
Understood, I dont consider anything a holy grail, I’m just trying to provide some clarity on the system. Some of what is stated is not necassarily followed, or is being followed anymore. At the core of the system it is the same now as it was years ago, but things have and wil lcontinue to change. So what was done ten years ago isnt necassirly being done now.
Rest periods are lax, no one is timing, at least the few times I have been. However, in many cases the rest periods are shorter than what one might think it should be, and then there are times when it is longer. It does depend on the amount of people working in. It is not typical to have 8-10 people working in on one lift, but it does happen. THe lift is always in use, such that once somebody completes it, the next person is up. If you are with 2 other people the rest periods will be very quick.
The foundation of the Westside vernacular, stems mostly from Zatziorsky’s book. With which, the ME and DE methods are pulled. THe rest requirements for the ME method is long (according to V.S), as you said 5 minutes give or take. However, for the most part, that does not happen there, It’s shorter.
I’m not a fan of the “what’s better” talk. Do what works for you, pull something from every system and person, find the commonaliites and differences, then practice on yourself.