Westside and the Deadlift

[quote]Caltene wrote:

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]Caltene wrote:
I don’t like Westside. A lot of gear and a lot of steroids, that’s about it. They don’t REALLY accomplish anything. What’s the point if you have to use all that junk? Natural, raw lifting will always be best in my book.[/quote]

I train Westside and don’t use multiply (yet) or steroids (yet) and make very good progress from year to year. Maybe you should read up on it so that you get better idea of what you are talking about… or any idea would be a welcomed improvement.[/quote]

I’m talking about the actual Westside lifters. You can’t call yourself “Westside” just because you read some articles and don’t even train there. Nice try though.:)[/quote]

Instead of a pissing match lets gets this back on track. Caltene it seems you don’t think WS works. What don’t you like about it? What are its’ weaknesses? Have you or someone you know tried it and had problems with it? If so what were the problems?

[quote]rabell59 wrote:

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:
I dont think the advances in gear or even the drugs have anything to do with it. I think there is not a whole lot of emphasis on deadlift training (like the different waves for squats and bench) because of a couple of reasons:

  1. Deadlifts are more stressful so they can’t be trained as often as the other two

  2. At a meet, in a ton of gear, by the time the deadlift rolls around, your are basically just trying to survive. Very few people on this site, let alone this planet, have known the kind of stress a 1,000lb+ squat puts on your body. Add that up with a shirt that allows you to bench press 200+ more pounds than you can without it and its safe to say that you have accumulated some stress. The deadlift numbers are lower because they are fucking exhausted.

With that said, I think the average deadlift for the top 5 guys there is something like 840. That’s still a pretty good deadlift, i guess.[/quote]

I agree deadlifts are stressful but I think squats are as stressful if not more. That may depend on the individual lifter, some are built more to squat vs deadlift and vice versa.

Regarding the deadlift being the last lift then based on that logic if the squat or bench were made the last lift those numbers would not be going up then because the lifter would be to exhausted.
[/quote]
Have you ever lifted in a meet before? Not a shot, just a question.

[quote]novaeer wrote:

[quote]rabell59 wrote:

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:
I dont think the advances in gear or even the drugs have anything to do with it. I think there is not a whole lot of emphasis on deadlift training (like the different waves for squats and bench) because of a couple of reasons:

  1. Deadlifts are more stressful so they can’t be trained as often as the other two

  2. At a meet, in a ton of gear, by the time the deadlift rolls around, your are basically just trying to survive. Very few people on this site, let alone this planet, have known the kind of stress a 1,000lb+ squat puts on your body. Add that up with a shirt that allows you to bench press 200+ more pounds than you can without it and its safe to say that you have accumulated some stress. The deadlift numbers are lower because they are fucking exhausted.

With that said, I think the average deadlift for the top 5 guys there is something like 840. That’s still a pretty good deadlift, i guess.[/quote]

I agree deadlifts are stressful but I think squats are as stressful if not more. That may depend on the individual lifter, some are built more to squat vs deadlift and vice versa.

Regarding the deadlift being the last lift then based on that logic if the squat or bench were made the last lift those numbers would not be going up then because the lifter would be to exhausted.
[/quote]
Have you ever lifted in a meet before? Not a shot, just a question.[/quote]

Yes. My lifts aren’t great but I still enjoy. I have always been strong in deadlift so that is why it stands out to me.

Storm, saw your thread and it is good. Great information. Do have a couple of questions.

Regarding supplemental work. I like the idea of switching around the one thing I don’t understand is about glute/ham and reverse hypers. Everything I have read regarding WS is exercises need to be cycled in and out. These two are the exception though. They seemed to be worked 3-5 times per week constantly. None of the gyms here have these so I can’t say I have any practical experience.

It seems though the only thing that can change is load, reps or I believe a long or short strap. I have read some WS lifters who say if they want to increase the squat then up these and it has a great carryover. So why are these two the exception to the rule of accomadation?

Also the videos I have seen of WS lifters shows them using an extremely wide stance toes pointed about at least 45 degrees. I haven’t tried this but what has been your experience. Also the box squats I have seen done by WS lifters in videos shows more of a rocking box squat that really does not emulate except in stance what is done at a meet. Your thoughts.

[/quote]
Have you ever lifted in a meet before? Not a shot, just a question.[/quote]

Also did not compete for several years because I messed up my knees and could not squat or deadlift anything above 225 for a long time due to the pain. Finally fixed that problem.

Its not just westside that doesn’t put up crazy deadlift numbers (comparatively to the bench and squat). Its generally a trend in multiply because of reasons STB gave exactly. Shawn Frankl confirmed this with me about all the big iron guys as well.

Its powerlifting, so all you care about is the total. None of them pull a PR on deadlifts in a meet cuz you are just too trashed after squat and bench. They get higher totals out of getting their squats and benches up since they don’t wreck you as much as the deadlift, while knowing their deadlift may suffer some.

[quote]ajweins wrote:
Its not just westside that doesn’t put up crazy deadlift numbers (comparatively to the bench and squat). Its generally a trend in multiply because of reasons STB gave exactly. Shawn Frankl confirmed this with me about all the big iron guys as well.

Its powerlifting, so all you care about is the total. None of them pull a PR on deadlifts in a meet cuz you are just too trashed after squat and bench. They get higher totals out of getting their squats and benches up since they don’t wreck you as much as the deadlift, while knowing their deadlift may suffer some.[/quote]

Thanks for the response. Let me boil it down to what I see is the difference. If you look back in the 70s and 80s almost all top lifters were fairly close in their squat and deadlift. Difference of maybe a 100 pounds between the two with many with in about 60. These guys were setting records in all three lifts, seldom an one time but still improving. Many seem to see WS and its style of training as what has created these new records. I don’t see it. What I think has driven the lifts is the technology of the gear. Everyone is focused on getting higher totals and the gear is what is getting them there. Now before anyone freaks out I am not saying WS is bad or their lifters. These guys all have my respect. I just think it has gotten away from what powerlifting used to be.

By the way I read an interview with Frankl and it was interesting to hear how he trains. Used bands but no box squat and heavy raw benching with low reps. This is not all but it seemed to be a quite different system than WS.

Just to give an idea of how strong guys were years ago here is an example. Roger Esteep would train sometimes with us. First time he came in when I was there was on squat day. He worked up to 500 lbs. At this weight he did 10 reps all below parallel. His form never changed nor did the bar speed. It was like a machine. Amazing to watch. I have often wondered what his total might have been with all of the new gear out there now.

So back to my original question. Is is WS training, which is good, or is it the gear that has really raised these totals?

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]Caltene wrote:

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]Caltene wrote:
I don’t like Westside. A lot of gear and a lot of steroids, that’s about it. They don’t REALLY accomplish anything. What’s the point if you have to use all that junk? Natural, raw lifting will always be best in my book.[/quote]

I train Westside and don’t use multiply (yet) or steroids (yet) and make very good progress from year to year. Maybe you should read up on it so that you get better idea of what you are talking about… or any idea would be a welcomed improvement.[/quote]

I’m talking about the actual Westside lifters. You can’t call yourself “Westside” just because you read some articles and don’t even train there. Nice try though.:)[/quote]

Cool man. How long have you been there? Since I can’t say that I train using Westside’s principles because I don’t train there (and I wasn’t pretending I was. I guess passing the cert. and having an open invitation from Louie to come back and train any time I want to doesn’t mean much to someone of your intellect and phyical calibur) You must have been training there for most of your natural life to be able to have such an opinion.[/quote]

AWWWWEEEEEEEEEE YEAHHH BOIIIIIII. That is how you DO!

(AKA good comeback, heh)

[quote]rabell59 wrote:

[quote]ajweins wrote:
Its not just westside that doesn’t put up crazy deadlift numbers (comparatively to the bench and squat). Its generally a trend in multiply because of reasons STB gave exactly. Shawn Frankl confirmed this with me about all the big iron guys as well.

Its powerlifting, so all you care about is the total. None of them pull a PR on deadlifts in a meet cuz you are just too trashed after squat and bench. They get higher totals out of getting their squats and benches up since they don’t wreck you as much as the deadlift, while knowing their deadlift may suffer some.[/quote]

Thanks for the response. Let me boil it down to what I see is the difference. If you look back in the 70s and 80s almost all top lifters were fairly close in their squat and deadlift. Difference of maybe a 100 pounds between the two with many with in about 60. These guys were setting records in all three lifts, seldom an one time but still improving. Many seem to see WS and its style of training as what has created these new records. I don’t see it. What I think has driven the lifts is the technology of the gear. Everyone is focused on getting higher totals and the gear is what is getting them there. Now before anyone freaks out I am not saying WS is bad or their lifters. These guys all have my respect. I just think it has gotten away from what powerlifting used to be.

By the way I read an interview with Frankl and it was interesting to hear how he trains. Used bands but no box squat and heavy raw benching with low reps. This is not all but it seemed to be a quite different system than WS.

Just to give an idea of how strong guys were years ago here is an example. Roger Esteep would train sometimes with us. First time he came in when I was there was on squat day. He worked up to 500 lbs. At this weight he did 10 reps all below parallel. His form never changed nor did the bar speed. It was like a machine. Amazing to watch. I have often wondered what his total might have been with all of the new gear out there now.

So back to my original question. Is is WS training, which is good, or is it the gear that has really raised these totals?[/quote]

Yes, big iron trains quite a bit differently than WS (more bb split, no box, in their gear more). I trained this way when I was working with Shawn and now I train more westside cuz I personally enjoy the variety more and feel I don’t get as beat up. Both are effective. Both work. There is nothing magical about westside that clearly separates if from anything else. As I said before, the deadlift disparity is found across multiply lifting. However, westside is a very effective way to train and obviously has produced a lot of amazing lifts so there is no reason to bash it. I have even talked to Shawn about me training with a westside template and he couldn’t care less. He was way more focused on not being scared of the weight and pushing yourself than he was about your training program.

Yes, big iron trains quite a bit differently than WS (more bb split, no box, in their gear more). I trained this way when I was working with Shawn and now I train more westside cuz I personally enjoy the variety more and feel I don’t get as beat up. Both are effective. Both work. There is nothing magical about westside that clearly separates if from anything else. As I said before, the deadlift disparity is found across multiply lifting.

However, westside is a very effective way to train and obviously has produced a lot of amazing lifts so there is no reason to bash it. I have even talked to Shawn about me training with a westside template and he couldn’t care less. He was way more focused on not being scared of the weight and pushing yourself than he was about your training program.[/quote]

I agree with what you say. To make it clear I am not bashing just questioning some of the areas I have found confusing. Also I forgot to mention I found it interesting in the article Shawn gave a alot of credit to his coach. Sounds like the guy really knows his lifters and what they need. Again back to the fact of having a good atmosphere and good coaching can take a lifter to the next level, one of the huge benefits I think WS provides.

Ragarding deadlifts I agree for many it is very taxing. I deadlift once per week and have never found it to be as taxing as squats. Not sure why but just a comfortable lift that I love and do well in. Squats, for me, are absolutely exhausting. [/quote]

Im built for deadlifts [kg lifts 170-110-260] and find the movement very ‘comfortable’. But it nearly kills me everytime I go above 85-90%. I plan to do a max deadlift once a year - Im dreading February 2013

I have the feeling Storm the Beach modified the Westside template to suit his needs and this is why he saw great gains in his deadlift. From my limited memory of his log - If his ME is a squat he will often do a RDL as accessory(keeping a heavy DL movement in there each week) and on DE day he will do Deadlifts.

Im guessing that STB does a Deadlift movement (ME, accessory or DE) every week. The same isnt true of a lot of Westsiders I dont think??

[quote]ros1816 wrote:
I have the feeling Storm the Beach modified the Westside template to suit his needs and this is why he saw great gains in his deadlift. [/quote]

that IMO is the beauty of westside. it is not a set in stone rep/set/intensity scheme with exact lifts. it is guidelines that can be adjusted to the persons weak spots. that last part is the critical part of their program, lift to make the weak links stronger.

so changing westside is ok as that is what it is meant to do. as long as you keep certain things. like on ME day you are meant to strain not just go for a new 1RM. this strain can by any lift that brings up the weak links and/or improves the main lift and can be done anywhere between 1-6 reps for 1-3 sets. a DE day. just be explosive. when you slow down you stop the lift. and get plenty of RE work to balance things out and that is westside to me in a nutshell.

[quote]rabell59 wrote:

[quote]colt44 wrote:

[quote]rabell59 wrote:

[quote]ThermalWarrior wrote:
(No more highlight when the deadlift record when last year by a guy wearing shorts and vest). [/quote]

Thanks for the reply. Not sure what you meant by this last sentence (no more highlight).
I believe Simmons has many good ideas but what I am thinking is it is really not that revolutionary. Here is what I mean.

Standard Powerlifting Workout

Monday
Heavy bench using 8s, 5s or 3s. Peak 3-6 weeks using 2s and singles
Triceps
Shoulders
Lats

Assistance Reps 3-5 sets 5-8 reps per set. Sometimes up to 12.
Some lifters would do 2 exercises per bodypart which could lead to overtrainig

Tuesday
Heavy Squat
Leg Press
Leg Curls
Calves

Similar on assistance reps and sets as Monday

Thursday
Light Bench 3x8 Problem frequently lifter goes to heavy
Same assistance. Reps maybe same as Monday though should be lighter weight or lighter weight reps in 10-12 range

Friday
Heavy DL
Light Squat working up to light weight for 1x8. Frequently lifter goes to heavy
Maybe some rack work
Assistance similar to squat day

Major differences I see to this and WSB is the additions of a “special exercise”. This exercise replaces heavy bench and and heavy squat. Most important part of this is that the exercise chosen has to focus on lifters weakness and focuses on getting stronger in this area. Only concern would be overtraining particularly for the natural raw lifter.

Speed work (or lifting explosively as it used to be called) is a great idea that should be focused on. The box squats done go back to at least the 1970s maybe 60s. A couple of lifters who developed this where "Peanuts) (can’t remember his last name) and Marv Philips. They did the rocking box squat I see WS lifters utilizing but for more reps and heavier weight.

Also looking at what Dave Tate has written assistance is usually limited to one exercise per bodypart for 3a-5 sets of varying reps. This should help reduce tendency of overtraining. Varying reps is also used on the standard powerlifting routine.

Percentages also a great idea and very beneficial for someone who doesn’t have a coach or the experience to know when they are overdoing it. In watching videos of WS lifters training and listening to Louie explain the system I feel it is more like a way of training that requires a good understanding of lifter weakenesses and different training techniques. I think for many lifters who use it successfully it probably helped them to stop overtraining and focus on their weaknesses instead of just doing any assistance work. The special exercises target the areas that most all of us struggle with and give a way to use exercises that will help them the most.

I think the other big benefit for WSB lifters is having Louie there to watch and coach. That is irreplaceable. I believe most of the lifters there were already elite or well on their way. They had a great base and then the coach made the adjustments necessary to take them to the next level.

So what I have wondered is if WS is really that much of a total revolution or more of an improvement. The reason I question this is because the lifts have gone up as the technology (suits, briefs, shorts) has improved. So it is really all because of the training or much of it from the technology?[/quote]

I think you have oversimplified the “Westside” method. Let me break down the major differences compared to more traditional schemes.

Consistently lifts at high percentage year round.

Uses HUNDREDS of lifts.

Uses variations of the main lifts, rather than the competitive lifts themselves until near competition.

Uses methods of accomodating resistance ergo: bands/chains, throughout EVERY training cycle.

Higher density of training, such that maximal lifts are performed with relativley little rest, compared to traditional long rest periods between max. lifting.

Typical volume of a maximal effort session in a traditional scheme was 2-4 sets (+/-1) generally speaking. The opposite holds true even going up to twelve sets.

Dynamic Effort methods aka speed sessions every week.

pulling sleds

Larger emphasis placed on GPP than usual.

Greater emphasis on back which led to many variations of good mornings.

Huge variety in barbells used.

I’m too tired to continue.

Oh and I saw louie pull 700 in briefs at 62 years old at Westside, looked pretty strong to me;)

[/quote]

I agree the special exercises have been a great addition and very original. Several of the items you listed relate to these and I felt this was implied. I should have been more clear. As far as rest periods I thought that on max efforts WS can go up to 5 minutes or longer. Also on speed day the videos I have seen of actual WS lifters doing them show upwards of 8 to 10 people rotating in so I question if the 45 to 60 second time period is a fast rule. I haven’t been there I am only going on what they have posted.
The 720 pull by Louie is impressive by any account and as I have said they do have some very good numbers regarding the DL. The question I have is again why the DL number has not increased like the Squat and Bench which are both heavily influenced by the gear technology.

This is a good system. I am not saying it isn’t. What I am asking if it is so good as some people say and the best system out there why does it not translate over to DL. Principles should apply to all lifts not just two. And again the two that are focused on, which produce these incredible numbers, are both based on gear technology.

I have also included more in my answer to louiek earlier.

I started this thread because I keep reading people trashing other systems and seeming to indicate that WS is the holy grail of powerlifting training. As I have said I think it is a good system with alot of great points that I have listed and you have expanded upon. But what I don’t see is that some people don’t seem to get the principles and focus only on the execution. I am just trying to see if I am missing something because the DL numbers keep standing out to me as a glaring exception.
[/quote]

Understood, I dont consider anything a holy grail, I’m just trying to provide some clarity on the system. Some of what is stated is not necassarily followed, or is being followed anymore. At the core of the system it is the same now as it was years ago, but things have and wil lcontinue to change. So what was done ten years ago isnt necassirly being done now.

Rest periods are lax, no one is timing, at least the few times I have been. However, in many cases the rest periods are shorter than what one might think it should be, and then there are times when it is longer. It does depend on the amount of people working in. It is not typical to have 8-10 people working in on one lift, but it does happen. THe lift is always in use, such that once somebody completes it, the next person is up. If you are with 2 other people the rest periods will be very quick.

The foundation of the Westside vernacular, stems mostly from Zatziorsky’s book. With which, the ME and DE methods are pulled. THe rest requirements for the ME method is long (according to V.S), as you said 5 minutes give or take. However, for the most part, that does not happen there, It’s shorter.

I’m not a fan of the “what’s better” talk. Do what works for you, pull something from every system and person, find the commonaliites and differences, then practice on yourself.

Understood, I dont consider anything a holy grail, I’m just trying to provide some clarity on the system. Some of what is stated is not necassarily followed, or is being followed anymore. At the core of the system it is the same now as it was years ago, but things have and wil lcontinue to change. So what was done ten years ago isnt necassirly being done now.

Rest periods are lax, no one is timing, at least the few times I have been. However, in many cases the rest periods are shorter than what one might think it should be, and then there are times when it is longer. It does depend on the amount of people working in. It is not typical to have 8-10 people working in on one lift, but it does happen. THe lift is always in use, such that once somebody completes it, the next person is up. If you are with 2 other people the rest periods will be very quick.

The foundation of the Westside vernacular, stems mostly from Zatziorsky’s book. With which, the ME and DE methods are pulled. THe rest requirements for the ME method is long (according to V.S), as you said 5 minutes give or take. However, for the most part, that does not happen there, It’s shorter.

I’m not a fan of the “what’s better” talk. Do what works for you, pull something from every system and person, find the commonaliites and differences, then practice on yourself. [/quote]

Appreciate your input. I think you have summed it up very well in several areas. Also thanks for giving some information based on first hand observations.

Storm is right. i don’t do three lift meets due to shoulder issues. If I attempted using heavy multiply gear it would accelerate these issues. the pounding my body would take just isn’t worth it.

But I use a loose multi ply suit for the deadlift. and my online coach, Josh Bryant believes in pulling a lot and heavy. It’s not the same approach, but many of his clients use multi ply gear.

[quote]rabell59 wrote:

[quote]louiek wrote:

[quote]rabell59 wrote:
So what I have wondered is if WS is really that much of a total revolution or more of an improvement. The reason I question this is because the lifts have gone up as the technology (suits, briefs, shorts) has improved. So it is really all because of the training or much of it from the technology?[/quote]

Westside uses the conjugate template to give them better geared totals. It can be used other ways but they use it their way. Can’t really be said if they’re stronger raw because they don’t compete raw. Maybe they’re getting stronger but it only transfers in gear. You’d know for a fact they’re getting stronger in general because the lifts go up in the gym. So if you really give a shit, you could check to see if they’re floor press records or board press records have gone up. That shows they’ve gotten stronger. But that doesn’t necessarily mean they’ll get stronger in a raw bench, and that’s not they’re goal so they wouldn’t care.

Besides, ever since someone figured out 1-5 reps builds strength, I don’t think there is such a thing as total revolution. The conjugate system is a template for athletic development and when executed correctly it’s fucking awesome.[/quote]

I know you didn’t say anything about raw vs gear but I want to make clear I was not referring to that. The names I mentioned also competed with the gear that was available in their time.

To address what you said let’s first be clear I am not interested in name calling or snide remarks such as “If you give a shit”. I am looking for a discussion not an attack. I find when remarks like this are made the person usually feels personally attacked because the area is something they are completely vested in. As I said I believe the system does work and has great ideas. what I don’t agree with is that it is revolutionary and is the one and only best system. And yes I am sure their lifts are going up and would expect that because of the level of lifters that are there. They already have a solid foundation of training and are going to the next level.

Regarding how exhausted people are by the time they get to the deadlift look at some of the totals Kaz and Coan put up before the advent of all this high tech gear. It was just as exhausting for them and yet they put up some amazing numbers. If the gear is adding 200 pounds as was stated for the squat you will see that both of these men would probably have been lifting those numbers.

My point is their are a number of proven systems out there and all have the same basic foundation. Some will work better than others. I think the thing about WS is that needs to be realized is it is not a set protocol. It is meant to be tweaked and frequently is even by WS based on what I have seen and heard. I am trying to point out the basic philosophy instead of just the system if that makes sense.

The other point I am making is that WS appears to be great if you look at the Squat and Bench which have had major changes due to gear but without it it does not have the dramatic gains. Yes a 840 DL is an incredible lift for most anyone but that number has been around for over 20 years with only a handful of men exceeding it. If you look at the Squat and Bench numbers from 20 years ago it is an amazing difference by a fairly large number of lifters. So is it the system or the gear? Back to the original question.
[/quote]

Right, sorry, didn’t know I was talking to my grandmother. Silly goose that I am, I thought this was Testosterone-Nation. If you think the word “shit” is a personal attack, you should’ve met my grandfather when he was alive. Honestly, you might have cried hearing him say hello.

My opinion, as written before: “… ever since someone figured out 1-5 reps builds strength, I don’t think there is such a thing as total revolution.”

I think they advance in strength, yes, and I think the gear gets better as well. My comments of, “if you give a shit” was meant to make you think this: If they advance in special exercises, than they got stronger. If you give a sh-- excuse me, if you “really care that much,” you could always try and find out what they actually do in the gym, and from there, determine if they’re special exercise records are going up or staying the same.

[quote]Caltene wrote:

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]Caltene wrote:
I don’t like Westside. A lot of gear and a lot of steroids, that’s about it. They don’t REALLY accomplish anything. What’s the point if you have to use all that junk? Natural, raw lifting will always be best in my book.[/quote]

I train Westside and don’t use multiply (yet) or steroids (yet) and make very good progress from year to year. Maybe you should read up on it so that you get better idea of what you are talking about… or any idea would be a welcomed improvement.[/quote]

I’m talking about the actual Westside lifters. You can’t call yourself “Westside” just because you read some articles and don’t even train there. Nice try though.:)[/quote]

Whatta dickhead.

fuck this thread.

[quote]DixiesFinest wrote:
fuck this thread. [/quote]

Fuck it twice. Fuck you too. Fuck the world. FUCK where’s my car?

Fuck this thread a third time for good measure

[quote]daraz wrote:

[quote]DixiesFinest wrote:
fuck this thread. [/quote]

Fuck it twice. Fuck you too. Fuck the world. FUCK where’s my car?

Fuck this thread a third time for good measure
[/quote]