T Nation

West Side Speed Day Doesn't Work?

I found some interesting stuff here, didn’t if I should post here or in another part of forum.

?The results of many studies (Berger 1963c; Wilson et al. 1993; W.B. Young and Bilby 1993) highlight a problem with traditional weight training and power development. It has been observed that when lifting a weight, the bar decelerates for a considerable proportion (24%) of the concentric movement (Elliott, Wilson, and Kerr 1989). The deceleration phase increases to 52% when performing the lift with a lighter resistance (e.g., 81% of 1 RM) (Elliott, Wilson, and Kerr 1989). In an effort to train at a faster velocity more specific to sport activity, athletes may attempt to move a light weight rapidly during the lift. This increases the duration of the deceleration phase (Newton and Wilson 1993b), as the athlete must slow the bar to a complete stop at the end of the range of motion and therefore does not optimally develop power.?

?Some individuals have misunderstood the method of submaximal accelerative efforts to mean that they should accelerate light weights through the entire range of motion without releasing them (i.e. , ?speed reps?). Such movements have been shown to be futile because more time is spent decelerating the bar for self protection than accelerating it for beneficial force or power production?(78-79).

it basicly says that speed reps are a waste of time, more time should be focused on Ballistic in smith cage.

I’m really curious what you guys think or have to say.

No, it’s necessary for muscles to be able to decelerate the weight. Besides, this is where the use of bands&chains comes into play. You are forced to accelerate.

retarded, and does not take accomodating resistance into account

it basicly says that speed reps are a waste of time, more time should be focused on Ballistic in smith cage.

So… The writer of that article recommend that we stop doing normal speed work and start using the Smith machine???

Whoa, now that is good advice, NOT!

HOLO, go to www.elitefts.com and read the articles about accomodating resistance (using bands and chains) and you’ll understand.

[quote]Mr. Moose wrote:
it basicly says that speed reps are a waste of time, more time should be focused on Ballistic in smith cage.

So… The writer of that article recommend that we stop doing normal speed work and start using the Smith machine???

Whoa, now that is good advice, NOT!

HOLO, go to www.elitefts.com and read the articles about accomodating resistance (using bands and chains) and you’ll understand.

[/quote]

Well then what about the lifters who are not ‘advanced’ enough to use accomadating resistance?

I read an article about this at ross boxing not too long ago…

[quote]Mr. Moose wrote:
So… The writer of that article recommend that we stop doing normal speed work and start using the Smith machine???

[/quote]

do you actually understand what a ballistic bench is?

it can be done with free weights, but smiths machine is far safer.

Do a search on this site for it, theres some pretty pictures of CT in one of his Articles doing them. They are just a different way of adjusting to the strength curve, and can be useful for those without chains/bands, or as something different within the context of a program.

[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
Mr. Moose wrote:
it basicly says that speed reps are a waste of time, more time should be focused on Ballistic in smith cage.

So… The writer of that article recommend that we stop doing normal speed work and start using the Smith machine???

Whoa, now that is good advice, NOT!

HOLO, go to www.elitefts.com and read the articles about accomodating resistance (using bands and chains) and you’ll understand.

Well then what about the lifters who are not ‘advanced’ enough to use accomadating resistance?

I read an article about this at ross boxing not too long ago…[/quote]

IMHO, a person not advanced enough to use accomodating resistance is in no need of speedwork a’ la Westside. They would be better off getting the base first using “normal” traditional heavy training.

[quote]cycomiko wrote:
Mr. Moose wrote:
So… The writer of that article recommend that we stop doing normal speed work and start using the Smith machine???

do you actually understand what a ballistic bench is?

it can be done with free weights, but smiths machine is far safer.

Do a search on this site for it, theres some pretty pictures of CT in one of his Articles doing them. They are just a different way of adjusting to the strength curve, and can be useful for those without chains/bands, or as something different within the context of a program.[/quote]

I assumed he was talking about the benchpress where you push as hard as you can and letting the bar fly and then try to catch it on the way down.

It might work but is it safe?

I don’t think so. Way better to use chains/bands.

?Some individuals have misunderstood the method of submaximal accelerative efforts to mean that they should accelerate light weights through the entire range of motion without releasing them (i.e. , ?speed reps?). Such movements have been shown to be futile because more time is spent decelerating the bar for self protection than accelerating it for beneficial force or power production?(78-79).

That is probably one of the more asinine statements I have read in a while.

Actually, this post does not even belong in the Strength Sport section b/c the only way I can begin to connect the dots relative to this piece of “work,” is to presume the author is speaking to sport specific training, not strength sports. He needs to get out of the lab and train a little.

Regardless, speed work is all about developing the ability to apply maximal force at the start of the concentric. We are not trying to turn ourselves into rocket ships, but rather come out of the hole with as much force as possible.

Why somebody would bring deceleration at the top of the lift into this equation is beyond me.

IMO, it demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of the objective of speed training in strength sports.

Next.

Keep in mind that in a max power squat, your main job is to get out of the hole. You usually have so much more strength than you need once you hit half way that the lift is done. The real effect of speed squats is to build explosiveness in the first 1/2 of the rom to get you out of th hole. Also, Dave Tate has recommended that if the bar shifts or “flies” at all at the top you need to increase band tension. For a 400 pound squat for example I would combine 180 pounds of bar weight with at least doubled #2 bands which would provide about 90 pounds at the bottom and 150 at the top, for a total of 270 bottom and 330 top, and make it impossible to throw the weight off. Note that the bar weight is only 45% of 400.

For sports requiring full extention, you need to include full extension exercises.

[quote]Mr. Moose wrote:

I assumed he was talking about the benchpress where you push as hard as you can and letting the bar fly and then try to catch it on the way down.

It might work but is it safe?

I don’t think so. Way better to use chains/bands.

[/quote]

Safe, yes. Unless you are a clutz that would injure themselves squatting, or doing any other move. Its not like its complicated like a slit clean or something

[quote]cycomiko wrote:
Mr. Moose wrote:

I assumed he was talking about the benchpress where you push as hard as you can and letting the bar fly and then try to catch it on the way down.

It might work but is it safe?

I don’t think so. Way better to use chains/bands.

Safe, yes. Unless you are a clutz that would injure themselves squatting, or doing any other move. Its not like its complicated like a slit clean or something[/quote]

To catch a weight in freefall when I’m lying directly underneath…

Personally I would go for chains/bands everytime.

Where did the original quote come from?

I would be interested to read the original research. If someone could post the entire references I would appreciate it.

[quote]Cowboy92 wrote:
Where did the original quote come from?

I would be interested to read the original research. If someone could post the entire references I would appreciate it.[/quote]

i second the request.

An option to throwing the bar is to do pushups holding on to the bar, and throwing yourself off of the floor, or a somewhat inclined surface. I sometimes set up a bench angled about 30 degrees against the wall, and do pushup throws off of it while holdind on to a 2x4. When you can throw yourself completely up, lower the angle.

Still, method of choice is bands.

Talking about bands, Is it the same thing for the CNS? I mean one is a fast movement or a Slow movement but with all power on?

Speed day not working is a bunch of bull shit. I had a chance to lift in the same meet as Louie Simmons over the weekend and watching him sumo deadlift was amazing. He was so explosive that he made 700+ lbs. look like 135. It was certainly fun to watch.

[quote]Holo wrote:
Talking about bands, Is it the same thing for the CNS? I mean one is a fast movement or a Slow movement but with all power on?

[/quote]

What exactly do you mean by “fast” and “slow” movements? Benching and DLing with bands is pretty damn fast if you do it right.

[quote]Mr. Moose wrote:

To catch a weight in freefall when I’m lying directly underneath…

Personally I would go for chains/bands everytime.

[/quote]

how high do you think you could throw a weight? but I guess you missed the comment that I first made.

“and can be useful for those without chains/bands”

[quote]cycomiko wrote:
Mr. Moose wrote:

To catch a weight in freefall when I’m lying directly underneath…

Personally I would go for chains/bands everytime.

how high do you think you could throw a weight? but I guess you missed the comment that I first made.

“and can be useful for those without chains/bands”[/quote]

Not sure how high but high enough to cause some serious injuries if not caught correctly. And shit happens… Murphy was too optimistic;-)

You’re right, I missed that line about NOT having chains/banbs.

Personally I wouldn’t do any ballistic bench (even if I didn’t have bands) but then I’m old and prefere to be safe than sorry. Some younger, more hungry trainee might decide to do them. Maybe with great results but FOR ME I think the risk/benefit ratio is abit too much towards risk.