T Nation

Weird Short Cycle

Let me preface this by saying that I’m not planning on using AAS any time soon - I have at least another year of natural training ahead of me.

I would like to one day enhance my gains with steroids, but I would have to avoid suspicion by my employer. Thus, traditional cycles are out of the question - I can’t gain that fast. After researching a while I have become interested in short cycles - specifically 2 on 4 off.

I’ve read the newbie cycle sticky which contains a few examples of shorties, which could be a possibility. But I was reading Bill Roberts’ Q&A at meso-rx and came across something very interesting - A guy asked about injecting 500 mg of sustenon and then considering himself “on” for 2 weeks, then taking four weeks “off,” then repeating.

So that’s six weeks on one injection. Bill basically said he didn’t think it would provide impressive gains.

So in a later Q&A the guy comes back and says he injected 600 mg of test enth and considered himself “on” for two weeks - and gained 7 lbs. Bill said probably half of it was water and half muscle, but seemed happy with the report.

So I’m wanting to get some opinions on this. If that guy did this cycle 8 times a year with the same results it would equal around 25 lbs. of muscle in a year - great gains, but not enough to arouse serious suspicion at work. That’s exactly what I would want. And I certainly like the
utter simplicity of this “cycle.”

So, my question are:

  1. There were no pictures or other evidence of a 7 lbs. gain, so does it seem possible? I’m thinking two 10 ml vials of test could add 20-25 lbs of muscle in a normal cycle, so why could a person not spread those gains over a year?

  2. If a person gained 3-4 lbs. from the first “cycle”, could they expect similar results on say the sixth, or do you think gains would diminish?

  3. Would there be any reason not to add a-dex to the two “on” weeks to prevent water retention?

  4. Would one injection of test cause enough shutdown to warrant the use of nolva for a short pct in week 3? I’m thinking no.

Responses would be appreciated, and please, if you feel like saying “this is the stupidest shit ever,” provide reasons why.

I only read the questions:

  1. There were no pictures or other evidence of a 7 lbs. gain, so does it seem possible? I’m thinking two 10 ml vials of test could add 20-25 lbs of muscle in a normal cycle, so why could a person not spread those gains over a year?

-It all about the endocrine system. The year long cycle will most likely not keep as much of those lb’s of lean muscle the short one will. Also there a theory that the effectiveness of the test will taper the longer you are on if dose is not changed, like 'receptor saturation… haha.

Why not do a short 6 week on go off for 4-6 weeks back on for 6, etc. gaining 5lb of solid muscle each 6 week cycle and keeping all of it (4 week cycles can be effective as well then 3-4 week break) - using prop for these cycles of course.

  1. If a person gained 3-4 lbs. from the first “cycle”, could they expect similar results on say the sixth, or do you think gains would diminish?

-Your first cycle will be your best (w/ all factors the same), but you can do several cycle with correct PCT and time off at the same dose with same gains. But as long as your cycles aren’t a year apart, you wil sooner or latter need to bump up dose to keep up the same muscle increase during cycle.

  1. Would there be any reason not to add a-dex to the two “on” weeks to prevent water retention?

-They limit gains and can be bad for you health in other ways (even more so than steroids), ONLY use it if you SEE/FEEL gyno.

  1. Would one injection of test cause enough shutdown to warrant the use of nolva for a short pct in week 3? I’m thinking no.

-Everyone is different, get blood work done and find out. But look one injection will do what? you won’t gain any muscle so what are you doing a PCT for, to keep estrogen levels in check when your system rebounds

(Which it will after only one inject)… which is ok but ou won’t need 3 weeks of nolva, but it wouldn’t kill you I guess. IMO you would just do some nolva for a week 20mg, and that’s it (depends on type of ester as well).

But why the hell would you only inject once? haha

Hope that helps!
RB

BTW, I don’t reply much on this forum, but you presented your self well, and READ THE STICKIES. Which mean you definitely are in the 5% of the first~ time posters on this Steroid Board… that definitely deserves a reply.

Thanks!

[quote]retailboy wrote:

  1. Would there be any reason not to add a-dex to the two “on” weeks to prevent water retention?

-They limit gains and can be bad for you health in other ways (even more so than steroids), ONLY use it if you SEE/FEEL gyno.

RB[/quote]

Care to elaborate?

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
retailboy wrote:

  1. Would there be any reason not to add a-dex to the two “on” weeks to prevent water retention?

-They limit gains and can be bad for you health in other ways (even more so than steroids), ONLY use it if you SEE/FEEL gyno.

RB

Care to elaborate?[/quote]

Side effects:
Abdominal pain, accidental injury, anxiety, arthritis, back pain, bone pain, breast pain, cataracts, chest pain, constipation, cough, depression, diarrhea, dizziness, dry mouth, flu-like symptoms, fractures, headache, heart disease, high blood pressure or cholesterol, hot flashes, infection, insomnia, joint disease or pain, loss of appetite, nausea, osteoporosis, pain, pelvic pain and stiffness, “pins and needles”, rash, shortness of breath, sore throat, stomach and intestinal upset, sweating, swelling of arms and legs, urinary tract infection, vaginal discharge or inflammation, vomiting, weakness, weight gain

The most common I hear about are the BP and HDL/LDL. But taken at the MINIMUM recommended dosage none of these will be seen usually. BUT it is an anti-aromatase, which is a substance that prevents testosterone from being converted into estrogen, which can boost testosterone - but if used when estrogen is not a problem for someone it can reduce estrogen so much it effects gains.

Pretty much, if you don’t have gyno, bloat is honestly not an issue unless your doing a show or SOME PEOPLE of 1 gram of test-e… So your just blowing your money and throwing more chemicals into your body if you don’t have growing gyno.

Is that what you wanted me to elaborate on or was it something else?

-RB

“So in a later Q&A the guy comes back and says he injected 600 mg of test enth and considered himself “on” for two weeks - and gained 7 lbs. Bill said probably half of it was water and half muscle, but seemed happy with the report.”

That is correct 1/2~ of it was water.

IF you do 2 weekers you need to use prop (yes you can use enth but not recommended). I wouldn’t do 2 weekers IMO, 4-6 weeks is what I prefer for a beginner/intermediate user, but we all react different. But some people have great success with the 2 weekers.

-RB

[quote]retailboy wrote:
BONEZ217 wrote:
retailboy wrote:

  1. Would there be any reason not to add a-dex to the two “on” weeks to prevent water retention?

-They limit gains and can be bad for you health in other ways (even more so than steroids), ONLY use it if you SEE/FEEL gyno.

RB

Care to elaborate?

Side effects:
Abdominal pain, accidental injury, anxiety, arthritis, back pain, bone pain, breast pain, cataracts, chest pain, constipation, cough, depression, diarrhea, dizziness, dry mouth, flu-like symptoms, fractures, headache, heart disease, high blood pressure or cholesterol, hot flashes, infection, insomnia, joint disease or pain, loss of appetite, nausea, osteoporosis, pain, pelvic pain and stiffness, “pins and needles”, rash, shortness of breath, sore throat, stomach and intestinal upset, sweating, swelling of arms and legs, urinary tract infection, vaginal discharge or inflammation, vomiting, weakness, weight gain

The most common I hear about are the BP and HDL/LDL. But taken at the MINIMUM recommended dosage none of these will be seen usually. BUT it is an anti-aromatase, which is a substance that prevents testosterone from being converted into estrogen, which can boost testosterone - but if used when estrogen is not a problem for someone it can reduce estrogen so much it effects gains.

Pretty much, if you don’t have gyno, bloat is honestly not an issue unless your doing a show or SOME PEOPLE of 1 gram of test-e… So your just blowing your money and throwing more chemicals into your body if you don’t have growing gyno.

Is that what you wanted me to elaborate on or was it something else?

-RB
[/quote]

Yes, that was what I wanted you to elaborate on. I just don’t agree with you. I prefer to keep my estrogen levels in the normal range, gyno prevention is an added benefit.
No big deal though. You are entitled to your opinion.

I don’t know of a way to confirm or reject the “side effects” you mentioned, but I find some of them hard to believe. But I don’t think I’ll be afflicted with vaginal discharge or ‘weight gain’ anytime soon.

[quote]retailboy wrote:

IF you do 2 weekers you need to use prop (yes you can use enth but not recommended). I wouldn’t do 2 weekers IMO, 4-6 weeks is what I prefer for a beginner/intermediate user, but we all react different. But some people have great success with the 2 weekers.

-RB[/quote]

Thanks for the replies, and thanks for the kind words.

Test prop would certainly seem like the more logical choice, but I was intrigued by this guy’s experience. From you guys who have done test only cycles (no dbol), how much have you gained in the first two weeks of your cycle?

P.S. I’ve read the stickies several times. Hell, I’ve read the stickies on like 10 different sites. This specific issue wasn’t really addressed in any of them.

[quote]Yes, that was what I wanted you to elaborate on. I just don’t agree with you. I prefer to keep my estrogen levels in the normal range, gyno prevention is an added benefit.
No big deal though. You are entitled to your opinion.

I don’t know of a way to confirm or reject the “side effects” you mentioned, but I find some of them hard to believe. But I don’t think I’ll be afflicted with vaginal discharge or ‘weight gain’ anytime soon.[/quote]

  • I feel staying on Testosterone than these research chemicals. All these forums/articles/media talk about the negatives of using Testosterone long term - when really IMO and from my research long term use of the research chems at high-average dosages will do more harm.

"I prefer to keep my estrogen levels in the normal range, gyno prevention is an added benefit. "
I’m not against that - keep your estrogen in check. But if you have no signs of your estrogen being out of whack you need blood work done - actually even when you get on the anti-e and then the symptoms disappear you still need to get blood work done, because your estrogen may be too low. I highly disapprove with ANYONE that starts a cycle and uses X amount of anti-e because they want to ‘keep estrogen in check’ when they have no blood work and no symptoms of low/high estrogen.

Answer me this: how do you know your estrogen is ‘in check’?

If it is too low, the long term side effects can be great: common example: loss of bone density. And as you can imagine there is a laundry realistic side effects if it is too high long term.

Just cause your injecting 500mg of Test doesn’t mean your estrogen is ‘out of check’ when you aren’t using anti-e’s everyone is different, most are fine.

I’m OK with disagreeing with you, it’s no biggie and I’m glad we can so it in a civil mature way. Neither of us have tons of evidence, so it would be a mute point to sit here and argue. Thanks for questioning.

-RB

[quote]retailboy wrote:
Yes, that was what I wanted you to elaborate on. I just don’t agree with you. I prefer to keep my estrogen levels in the normal range, gyno prevention is an added benefit.
No big deal though. You are entitled to your opinion.

I don’t know of a way to confirm or reject the “side effects” you mentioned, but I find some of them hard to believe. But I don’t think I’ll be afflicted with vaginal discharge or ‘weight gain’ anytime soon.

  • I feel staying on Testosterone than these research chemicals. All these forums/articles/media talk about the negatives of using Testosterone long term - when really IMO and from my research long term use of the research chems at high-average dosages will do more harm.

"I prefer to keep my estrogen levels in the normal range, gyno prevention is an added benefit. "
I’m not against that - keep your estrogen in check. But if you have no signs of your estrogen being out of whack you need blood work done - actually even when you get on the anti-e and then the symptoms disappear you still need to get blood work done, because your estrogen may be too low. I highly disapprove with ANYONE that starts a cycle and uses X amount of anti-e because they want to ‘keep estrogen in check’ when they have no blood work and no symptoms of low/high estrogen.

Answer me this: how do you know your estrogen is ‘in check’?

If it is too low, the long term side effects can be great: common example: loss of bone density. And as you can imagine there is a laundry realistic side effects if it is too high long term.

Just cause your injecting 500mg of Test doesn’t mean your estrogen is ‘out of check’ when you aren’t using anti-e’s everyone is different, most are fine.

I’m OK with disagreeing with you, it’s no biggie and I’m glad we can so it in a civil mature way. Neither of us have tons of evidence, so it would be a mute point to sit here and argue. Thanks for questioning.

-RB[/quote]

Well I have had blood tests done in the past during a cycle of 500mg Test with 30mg Dbol. I don’t have the numbers anymore and I don’t remember them, sorry. I do remember than my estrogen levels became elevated above the normal range. While on 700mg/wk Test I can virtually guarentee that my estrogen levels were above normal based on the way I feel. I know at this point that if I use .33-.4 ml EOD of research chem anastrozole that my estrogen levels go back to normal, again based on physical markers. If I use .25 EOD I don’t get gyno but I feel like shit. If I use .25 ED I also feel like shit. I may be more sensitive to the effects of high or low estrogen (excluding gyno symptoms) than you are. I know this isn’t science, but all of the anecdotal claims I have read have allowed me to come to these conclusions with peace of mind.

Good info on a-dex. I personally would use it, but I have no previous experience to base that on.

Back to my short cycle interest (not neccesarily with test enth): Two weeks of test could cause substantial HPTA shutdown, no? RB stated that 20mg of Nolva a day for a week would be enough to restore natural production. Would shutting yourself down again 3-4 weeks later, then rebounding two weeks later, etc. cause gradual suppression/damage due to some type of yo-yo effect?

In other words, is three weeks off enough between the last dose of Nolva and the first dose of test in the new cycle? Remember that we are discussing 2 weekers.

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
retailboy wrote:
Yes, that was what I wanted you to elaborate on. I just don’t agree with you. I prefer to keep my estrogen levels in the normal range, gyno prevention is an added benefit.
No big deal though. You are entitled to your opinion.

I don’t know of a way to confirm or reject the “side effects” you mentioned, but I find some of them hard to believe. But I don’t think I’ll be afflicted with vaginal discharge or ‘weight gain’ anytime soon.

  • I feel staying on Testosterone than these research chemicals. All these forums/articles/media talk about the negatives of using Testosterone long term - when really IMO and from my research long term use of the research chems at high-average dosages will do more harm.

"I prefer to keep my estrogen levels in the normal range, gyno prevention is an added benefit. "
I’m not against that - keep your estrogen in check. But if you have no signs of your estrogen being out of whack you need blood work done - actually even when you get on the anti-e and then the symptoms disappear you still need to get blood work done, because your estrogen may be too low. I highly disapprove with ANYONE that starts a cycle and uses X amount of anti-e because they want to ‘keep estrogen in check’ when they have no blood work and no symptoms of low/high estrogen.

Answer me this: how do you know your estrogen is ‘in check’?

If it is too low, the long term side effects can be great: common example: loss of bone density. And as you can imagine there is a laundry realistic side effects if it is too high long term.

Just cause your injecting 500mg of Test doesn’t mean your estrogen is ‘out of check’ when you aren’t using anti-e’s everyone is different, most are fine.

I’m OK with disagreeing with you, it’s no biggie and I’m glad we can so it in a civil mature way. Neither of us have tons of evidence, so it would be a mute point to sit here and argue. Thanks for questioning.

-RB

Well I have had blood tests done in the past during a cycle of 500mg Test with 30mg Dbol. I don’t have the numbers anymore and I don’t remember them, sorry. I do remember than my estrogen levels became elevated above the normal range. While on 700mg/wk Test I can virtually guarentee that my estrogen levels were above normal based on the way I feel. I know at this point that if I use .33-.4 ml EOD of research chem anastrozole that my estrogen levels go back to normal, again based on physical markers. If I use .25 EOD I don’t get gyno but I feel like shit. If I use .25 ED I also feel like shit. I may be more sensitive to the effects of high or low estrogen (excluding gyno symptoms) than you are. I know this isn’t science, but all of the anecdotal claims I have read have allowed me to come to these conclusions with peace of mind. [/quote]

Absolutely support your use, I was just making sure you weren’t using some recommended amount cause you think naturally everyone estrogen is unhealthily high on cycle and the recommended amount will make the levels perfect. Because there are a lot of those out there, same with the: “I’ve never had gyno or symptoms of gyno before but I’m going to take and anti-e for it through out cycle.” that’s just plain stupid.

Good Conversation Bonez.

[quote]snakey wrote:
Good info on a-dex. I personally would use it, but I have no previous experience to base that on.

Back to my short cycle interest (not neccesarily with test enth): Two weeks of test could cause substantial HPTA shutdown, no? RB stated that 20mg of Nolva a day for a week would be enough to restore natural production. Would shutting yourself down again 3-4 weeks later, then rebounding two weeks later, etc. cause gradual suppression/damage due to some type of yo-yo effect?

In other words, is three weeks off enough between the last dose of Nolva and the first dose of test in the new cycle? Remember that we are discussing 2 weekers.[/quote]

Everyone is different I like either 6-8 week bursts with prop, or 10 weekers with test-e.

But for two weeks, I would do the 2 week cycle
-then after the gears half life do 1 week 40mgs nolva e/d, then another week of 20mg nolva e/d then take a week off then jump back on. Don’t use test-e for these two weekers.

This is what I would do, and have done in the past once successfully with blood work taken twice during PCT. But I don’t screw around with the two weekers anymore, just wasn’t for me.

Hope that helps.
RB

[quote]retailboy wrote:
snakey wrote:
Good info on a-dex. I personally would use it, but I have no previous experience to base that on.

Back to my short cycle interest (not neccesarily with test enth): Two weeks of test could cause substantial HPTA shutdown, no? RB stated that 20mg of Nolva a day for a week would be enough to restore natural production. Would shutting yourself down again 3-4 weeks later, then rebounding two weeks later, etc. cause gradual suppression/damage due to some type of yo-yo effect?

In other words, is three weeks off enough between the last dose of Nolva and the first dose of test in the new cycle? Remember that we are discussing 2 weekers.

Everyone is different I like either 6-8 week bursts with prop, or 10 weekers with test-e.

But for two weeks, I would do the 2 week cycle
-then after the gears half life do 1 week 40mgs nolva e/d, then another week of 20mg nolva e/d then take a week off then jump back on. Don’t use test-e for these two weekers.

This is what I would do, and have done in the past once successfully with blood work taken twice during PCT. But I don’t screw around with the two weekers anymore, just wasn’t for me.

Hope that helps.
RB[/quote]

Thanks, that does help.

It really isn’t a good way to do a 2-week cycle. As already mentioned above, short-acting compounds are the way to go.

Another thing you could look at is doing something so modest that it:

  1. Won’t arouse suspicion, giving no sudden changes, fluctuations, rounded face, etc.

  2. I think will not suppress LH and therefore need not be cycled

Now, I haven’t proven the above yet. I plan on doing so in a reasonably well substantiated way at a later time but at the moment am just giving it an initial trial to get an initial impression.

Namely, the concepts are:

  1. We know low dose letrozole can keep E2 at an ideal low-normal level even with slightly supraphysiological free T, and – in the absence of other suppressive factors besides that level of free T – can boost LH enough to yield such a level of free T.

  2. We know that even in the absence of LH, low dose HCG can give high-normal or better free T.

  3. True, effects of HCG and LH on the testes will not be additive. But if LH were to drop from a level high enough for the testes to produce slightly supraphysiological free T down to a merely midnormal level of LH, HCG could kick the free T production back up to slightly supraphysiological.

  4. So that gives us room for a factor so moderately suppressive as to merely reduce LH back down to approximately mid-normal.

  5. We know that Primobolan is pretty moderately suppressive at moderate doses. But it is expensive.

  6. I hope that Masteron may be similar in this property.

Resulting plan to take advantage of the above: I am using these three agents at the same time. The plan would ordinarily be HCG at about 100 IU day, letrozole at about 0.36 mg/day, and Masteron at 15 mg/day. However I recently finished an 8 week cycle sans HCG and so after 2 weeks clean, wanted to use higher HCG (200 IU/day) temporarily, so have been doing that.

Anyway, it’s a nice performance enhancer compared to using nothing, considerably better than expected really, and LH may very well be midnormal. (Not demonstrated by blood test yet though.) If so, then this would not have to be cycled.

It’s also just ridiculously inexpensive to do and with the products lasting really long times.

By the way, I don’t recommend stretching a constituted bottle of HCG out for long times (e.g. over a month, though I do not have information on how long may be acceptable - that is a pure guess.) I divide the amount among several vials if need be, none being larger than needed for a month, and freezing the remainder till needed.

interesting as ever, Bill. I just wish the frequent bloodwork part of the equation wasn’t cost prohibitive these days. Kind of makes me miss HMO coverage.

Great post Bill, thanks for stopping in!

Thanks, Snakey! Well, as to how good the post is, that will depend on how this actually does work.

I think it very unlikely though that it will fail to maintain normal LH, as with merely normal LH in the first place, 100 mg of week of testosterone inhibits it sufficiently for “only” a 50% drop in free T, so it seems unlikely that adding 100 mg/week Masteron to a situation where LH would otherwise be high enough for slightly supraphysiological free T would drop it down to a level too suppressed to be reasonably maintained long-term.

Weirder things have happened I suppose, but it seems to me it would be a weird thing for this to be a problem LH-wise.