T Nation

Weights and Plyometrics - Jump Training Efficiency


#1

Some info about me:
23 yrs young, I’m 5’9 , weight around 72kg ( 185 lbs ) , 2 foot jumper.
(not so strong).
Max squat 225lbs x5
bench is 198 x5
pull ups with extra 66 lbs x5

Been training for years at basketball ( not professionally , but been on a team), and vertical jump.
I think I have researched about the jump and athletic topic alot, read dozens if not hundreds of post , lots of articles from famous coaches (Vertical jump bible , Joel Defranco etc) and even done some programs before ( as I said, VJB and boing vert - 2 of the most famous ones which helped alot)
I can say I’m quiet athletic for my size,not a great athlete but , I can hang on a 10ft rim and dunk a ball with 1 hand (once in a while…not an impressive statue but strive for more) but I want more than that, I want to dunk it casually and increase my vertical to 40inches.

So, after giving a brief about myself let’s get straight to the point I want to ask you guys :
I think I got the basic understanding of how to improve the vertical jump, lift weights, train fast fiber twiches ( plyometrics) , run sprints, work on balance, be flexible, train core.
I combine strength training and plyos. I do them every other day (Sun , Thu , Thurs )

I do the strength and the plyo in the same workout, first strength then plyos, a good example of one of my workouts for that would be:
Dynamic warm up
5 Sets of : 5RM squats - - - rest 2 minuts into 5 Depth jumps
5 sets of Hip thrusts - - - rest 2 minuts into 8 Tuck jumps
3 Sets of calves raise with weight
Core excercies
Wrap it up with sterching and mobility work.

But recently I have been questioning this method as nn common sense, doing 5X5 RM of squats kills all the power you have
and then jumping right into Depth jump is not as effective because the lost of strength, So I though about dedicating 2 times a week for strength (Sunday, Thursday) and do all the usual stuff, heavy squats, heavy lunges, step ups, hip thrusts ( of course each session will consists of different exercises ) and Tuesday will be the day for plyo work like Depth jumps, tuck jumps, lateral hops and reactive training.
Is my logic makes any sense ? Or is there any other training routine to give it a go?

Sorry for the long post, I really want you to share your knowledge with me, and get some tips from the more experienced fellas here.


Routine for Strength & Explosive
#2

Wut is your priority: jumping or lifting?

Gonna go off the assumption you want to smack your head on the rim.

Why not do plyos/jumps before strength work? You do em when fresh to get the most out of them and it primes you for doing your resistance training explosively. Mix in some other plyometric/jump variations too and use the one’s with the most carryover e.g. tuck jumps get you good at muay thai or some shit but for vertical jump there’s better alternatives.

Train the way you play for best carryover. Every single rep of your strength work should be fast and explosive. You should have no idea what your actual max is because as far as you’re concerned your max is however much you can move with good speed.

Getting super strong and grinding out big weights will make you good at just that: being strong but slow. Training at higher percentages or at high RPEs or reps left in the tank will necessitate a slow down in bar speed will negatively impact explosiveness.

Maybe do some inherent explosive movements too: Power Cleans, Kettlebell Swings etc.

This dude’s post was about sprinting and football but some helpful stuff there

Use the search button on the top right of the forum pages for moar


#3

Thanks bro, MAIN IS JUMPING
Wanna jump as high as I can and genetticly capable
Well , hitting the rim with my head is a really like a dream lol, shit 1st Id like to throw it down 2 handed
So you would suggest something like this ?
Box squats - slow to fast ?
And how about the distribution I suggested? 2 times a week weights and 1 for ply
Or do Some plyos before and then hit it hard with heavy squats and lunges?


#4

Do you jump off one leg or two? Do you have deep or shallow knee bends when jumping?

Best to record yourself as your perception may not be our perception.


#5

Depends on your kind of jump. If you “dip” hard/deep and use a lot of stretch reflex in your jump then training without stretch reflex is sub optimal.

I think you should do plyos before strength in the same workout.

There are advantages to doing so as per my first post. If you split it up you might be fresher but depending on how hard you go in your strength days you may still be fatigued/recovering by the time plyos come around.


#6


2 legged jumper, no shallow bending in knee
Video about 4 years ago.


#7

Great one, makes more sense. I really feel fatigued in the rest days also so I’d put the plyos before and not do it on another day.
So 2 times a week is good yeah? 3 is overtraining?


#8

TLDR probably go twice a week for now. If you make gains then stick with it. It not reassess and modify as required.

You probably mean overreaching but its just semantics.

In terms of fatigue management and recovery it’s how much work you do over time not the frequency that fucks you up.

e.g. Train everyday but only do one working set. Total weekly workload 7 sets. You’ll be fine. Train twice a week but do 20 working sets. Total weekly working sets = 40. You’ll exceed your recovery ability.

Also worth considering is that not all tissues heal at the same rate. Muscles may recover quickly but joints/capsules/tendons/ligaments can take a hammering. Landing from a jump can expose your joints to forces of many times bodyweight. So three times per week may not exceed your recovery capacity but may injure you long term.

There’s work arounds tho like a box squat where you land relatively gently on a high box instead of coming crashing all the way back down to the ground.

Other things to try:

Lose or minimise gains in non functional mass e.g. having huge arms is fun but will hold you back because the extra mass requires more force to accelerate. Much easier to lose mass than to generate more force. Improving body composition/losing fat same deal.

Improve jump technique/basketball specific training. Broad jumps, sprints and other explosive movements will also carryover well to vertical jumping ability.

From what you’ve written am guessing you should probably optimise your fatigue management/recovery e.g. eat enough, sleep enough, don’t overrreach/train, deload etc.

Stimulus. Recovery. Adaption. That’s how it works. If you’re recovery is rubbish your adaptions will suffer.


#9

You the man, thanks mate, gonna apply it in my training following the next week.
2 times a week is good enough for me.
MUCH THANKS


#10

I’d get your squat up first of all, something like a 12 week run of madcow 5x5.
Then do something like this…

Could ask Thib some Qs in his part of the forum also


#11

Yeah, my squat is very shitty haha.
But I think I’d better combine them , raising up the squat and the explosive power?
I’ve been doing jump squats/ lunges/ calf raises/ tuck jumps/ laterla jumps for years, so I’d say my explosive power is quiet good, but my strength is very bad.
Ill be checking that out , thanks!


#12

I would do something like this:

W1:
Day 1

  • Box Jumps 8x2-3
  • Squats (partial or full up to you) 8x3 @ 70%
  • Core work (e.g. ab wheel)

Day 2

  • Med Ball Throw 15kg 8x2-3
  • Push Press 6x2 @ 70%
  • core work (e.g palof press)

Day 3

  • nothing or
  • court agility work or
  • sprints (careful about injury) or
  • Broad Jump 4x2
  • Power Clean 5x2 @ 60%
  • Core work (e.g. back ext)

W2:
Day 1

  • Box Jumps 5x2
  • Squats (partial or full up to you) 8x2 @ 60%
  • Core work (e.g. ab wheel)

Day 2

  • Med Ball Throw 10kg 5x1
  • Push Press 5x1 @ 60%
  • core work (e.g palof press)

Day 3

  • nothing or
  • court agility work or
  • sprints (careful about injury) or
  • Broad Jump 4x1
  • Power Clean 3x2 @ 50%
  • Core work (e.g. back ext

W3:
Day 1

  • Weighted Box Jumps 5x2 (second time around - ie. Week 6 - do Depth Box Jumps)
  • Squats (partial or full up to you) ramp to a heavy triple
  • Core work (e.g. ab wheel)

Day 2

  • Med Ball Throw 20kg 5x1
  • Push Press ramp to a heavy double
  • core work (e.g palof press)

Day 3

  • nothing or
  • court agility work or
  • sprints (careful about injury) or
  • Double Broad Jumps 4x1
  • Power Clean; doubles, add 10-20lbs each set until you feel you cant hit the weight
  • Core work (e.g. back ext)

Then repeat.
Deload as necessary.
Use the weight you hit in week 3 to base percentages in the next cycle off
Optiinally do back work on day 2 (eg slams and/or rows/chins)
Don’t use too much weight on the weighted box jump +10-20%
Weight on the throws are suggestions, use what’s appropriate for you
The throw starts with the ball onnthe ground, you bring to your chest and jump amd throw. Do not try catch the ball!!!
You can do jump squats if you think they carry over best
Don’t jump off a crazy box for the depth jump
Make sure you are fresh enough for actual practice (that may mean backing off on the intensity or volume)
Dont overdo thr core work, consider it optional


#13

I second what badger said. Weak legs is what’s holding you back. Explosiveness requires power. In terms of athletics, power=Force(strength) x speed. You can do all the jumps and plyometrics and cool explosive training tecniques you want, but if you’re not strong, you’re not strong. Strong legs are the legs that can jump through the roof.


#14

Post-Activation Potentiation Training, PAP

Performing a Strength Set, Resting and then performing a Plyometric Movement falls in to the category of Post-Activation Potentiation Training.

PAP is an effective method of increasing Speed and/or Power, dependent on how the program is written and executed.

Strength Exercise

Performing a Strength Exercise, such as the Squat, prime the muscles and nervous system to be more explosive in a Plyometric Movement.

Here are some Strength Set Guidelines…

  1. Training Load Percentage: 80% of your 1 Repetition Max or greater.

  2. Repetitions: 1 to 2 Reps Per Set.

  3. Rest Periods: 3 minute Rest Periods between each set of Strength and Power ensure complete recover.

The Strength Set need to be heavy enough to evoke more Speed and/or Power from your Plyometric Movement

However, if your Strength Set is too heavy/taxing, it will decrease limit the amount of Speed and Power you produce in your Plyometric Set. In other words, you won’t jump as high as you are capable of.

5 X 5 Squats

Your 5 X 5 are probably killing your Power.

Cut back on your Strength Squat Set Load and Repetition. Rest 3 minutes and then preform your Plyometrics.

Goldilocks PAP Parable

As Goldilocks found out, some experimentation is required with everything to find out what is just right.

Kenny Croxdale


#15

This is my favorite article on this subject: http://www.verkhoshansky.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=bBhPjzgn%2B0A%3D&tabid=92&mid=426

@eliran0220 - check the second half of the article, covering “The Stimulation Method”. If that kind of stuff interests you, there’s a book with countless recipes and protocols on this stuff:

http://www.verkhoshansky.com/SSTManualforCoacheswithAustralia/tabid/118/Default.aspx

peace.


#16

Doesn’t look terrible what you’re doing - combining strength and plyometrics.

You could also practice the exact skill you want to improve - whether that’s dunking, approach vertical, or standing vertical.

Otherwise, core comes into play (for forceful trunk extension upon takeoff), as does hip strength (glutes, hamstrings, adductors), and the arms (increasing downwards velocity to increase upwards velocity). I wrote some more keys here if you want to take a look: http://jackedathlete.com/3-things-i-learned-gaining-3-5-inches-on-my-vertical-jump-in-10-days/