T Nation

Weightlifting and Gymnastics

Hi CT could you give me few tips, or rather you could simply answer my questions?
I am doing Ol for 10 months now, my clean and jerk is 130 kg and snatch 100 kg Front squat- 160 kg. I wanna be great athlete, my goal is Clean and jerk 180 kg snatch around 150 kg and run faster, also handle solid set on gymnastic rings.

Training:

MO: Snatch to 1RM then 3x2 with 85%
C&J to 1RM then 3x2 with 85%
Back Squat 5x5
push press 4x3

Tu: Front squat to 1RM then 3x2 with 85%
Hang clean 5x2
Clean pull 5x3
Snatch grip press 5x3

Wed: Gymnastic on ring or floor

Thur: Power Snatch 5x3
Power Clean&Jerk 5x3
Snatch pull 6x2
Front squat 5x3

Fri: Hang snatch 6x1
Hang power clean 4x3
Top half front squat 6x2
Push press 5x5

Sat: Morning training:
Snatch 6x2
Clean and jerk 6x2
Back squat 6x3
Press 4x3

 Evening training:
 Sprints + Gymnastic

Sun: Morning training:
Power clean & Jerk 5x2
Power snatch 5x2
Clean pull 6x3
Snatch pull 6x3

 Evening training
 Gymnastic

Could it work?

I train every day, when I feel I need rest day I take it. I�´m nineteen years old.

Thanks a lot.

Please can you help me?

[quote]Petlisek wrote:
Please can you help me?[/quote]

  1. Very few people no using drugs will be able to snatch 150kg and clean & jerk 180kg at a bodyweight low enough to be good on rings and on gymnastic movement as well as be fast. And those who can reach those numbers are actual olympic lifters.

  2. Gaining strength on the olympic lifts is not like gaining strength on regular lifts… it is fairly doable to increase your squat or deadlift from 140kg to 180kg in a fairly short period of time. But in the olympic lifts, such rapid increases basically are impossible after you reach a body weight snatch and a 120% bodyweight clean & jerk. Once you reach those levels, strength gains are much slower because they are not only dependant on muscle strength but on technique and speed.

  3. Someone who focuses 100% on the olympic lift, who has a good live coach and is at least somewhat genetically gifted might go from 100 - 130 up to 140/150 - 170/180 in 3-4 years. And we’re talking about a full time olympic lifter who does no other training. For example I trained one guy who increased his clean from 80kg to 105kg in 2 weeks… but after tgat, progress is much much slower.

  4. If on top of that you want to be great at gymnastics and sprinting we have to look at someone like Rich Froening… the guy won the last 2 or 3 Crossfit games and is arguably one of the best all-arounder in the world. He is a great lifter and very good at basic gymnastic moves and is pretty fast. He is what I consider the extreme end of what can be achieved by being an all-arounder… and his best lifts are 130kg (or 135) snatch and 165kg clean & jerk. NOW, that guy makes A TON of money from his sports and sponsorships, so he doesn’t have to work… his job is to train, and his maxes are still way short of your expectations.

  5. And for the sake of the arguement, even if reaching 150 - 180 while being great at gymnastics and sprinting (so not being much above 200lbs or even lighter) without taking drugs were possible, it would require about 5 years. Which obviously would require a very complex training plan, evolving every 3-4 months. Not something that can be answered with one forum question!!!

Thanks CT, I can clean and jerk almost 140% of my body weight, and also doing basic movements on ring like muscle ups, front lever, transfer to handstand and handstand push ups, so I think I have a great basic for that.

I suppose that it will be work on more than five years, but my only problem is I haven’t enough information for evolvinig my training every 3-4 months.

Rich Fronning is awesome, but he must work on endurance too. I think he could be so much stronger and better in OL.

[quote]Petlisek wrote:
Thanks CT, I can clean and jerk almost 140% of my body weight, and also doing basic movements on ring like muscle ups, front lever, transfer to handstand and handstand push ups, so I think I have a great basic for that.

I suppose that it will be work on more than five years, but my only problem is I haven’t enough information for evolvinig my training every 3-4 months.

Rich Fronning is awesome, but he must work on endurance too. I think he could be so much stronger and better in OL.[/quote]

Possible, but he does represent the extreme in overall physical potential IMHO. I wish you all the best in getting your goals. But the original point stands… I cannot give you 3-5 years worth of training plan on a single forum… and I couldn’t do it without coaching you in person. And if you want to get 150 - 180, which would be VERY high level lifts for your weight then you WILL need an olympic lifting coach to work with you in person.

Hey CT, related question, have you experimented with using rings based support work after the layer workout? (i.e. ring pullups, ring rows, ring bicep curls on high pull day and various ring pressing variations after tilt days).

You’d previously mentioned (bootcamp 2?) that rings provided a unique and powerful stimulation due to the microosccilation/explosive contractions from the instability. It seems that rings would complement the deadstop/explosive nature of the layer system well, with greater ROM, stabilizer development, and targetted tension (particulaly for lats and biceps, but also ring flyes for chest larry scott style). In fact, of the ancillary movements you recommended, it seems like rings could be an ideal substitute?

Ive been experimenting with this for awhile and the results have been great, but Im curious to hear if you saw additional value and perhaps have any trainees who are meshing the two training tools. I do notice the outside of elbows gets sore if I do ring work daily. Also a peculiar effect where my body seems to “tighten” or streamline a few hours after ring work whereas I feel “fuller” when I omit ring work after layering. Could be balancing excessive stimulatoin/volume, etc. so I’d appreciate your guidance. Thanks.

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Petlisek wrote:
Please can you help me?[/quote]

  1. Very few people no using drugs will be able to snatch 150kg and clean & jerk 180kg at a bodyweight low enough to be good on rings and on gymnastic movement as well as be fast. And those who can reach those numbers are actual olympic lifters.

  2. Gaining strength on the olympic lifts is not like gaining strength on regular lifts… it is fairly doable to increase your squat or deadlift from 140kg to 180kg in a fairly short period of time. But in the olympic lifts, such rapid increases basically are impossible after you reach a body weight snatch and a 120% bodyweight clean & jerk. Once you reach those levels, strength gains are much slower because they are not only dependant on muscle strength but on technique and speed.

  3. Someone who focuses 100% on the olympic lift, who has a good live coach and is at least somewhat genetically gifted might go from 100 - 130 up to 140/150 - 170/180 in 3-4 years. And we’re talking about a full time olympic lifter who does no other training. For example I trained one guy who increased his clean from 80kg to 105kg in 2 weeks… but after tgat, progress is much much slower.

  4. If on top of that you want to be great at gymnastics and sprinting we have to look at someone like Rich Froening… the guy won the last 2 or 3 Crossfit games and is arguably one of the best all-arounder in the world. He is a great lifter and very good at basic gymnastic moves and is pretty fast. He is what I consider the extreme end of what can be achieved by being an all-arounder… and his best lifts are 130kg (or 135) snatch and 165kg clean & jerk. NOW, that guy makes A TON of money from his sports and sponsorships, so he doesn’t have to work… his job is to train, and his maxes are still way short of your expectations.

  5. And for the sake of the arguement, even if reaching 150 - 180 while being great at gymnastics and sprinting (so not being much above 200lbs or even lighter) without taking drugs were possible, it would require about 5 years. Which obviously would require a very complex training plan, evolving every 3-4 months. Not something that can be answered with one forum question!!![/quote]

I do hate the arguments about Rich, there’s so many of his nuthuggers around saying he’s the greatest blah blah. Trey Hardee is actually a decathlete with far higher lifting stats than Rich, which is considerably significant if you include the guy only has around 5-10lbs on Rich and the other tests of fitness he competes in.

[quote]-Sigil- wrote:
Hey CT, related question, have you experimented with using rings based support work after the layer workout? (i.e. ring pullups, ring rows, ring bicep curls on high pull day and various ring pressing variations after tilt days).

You’d previously mentioned (bootcamp 2?) that rings provided a unique and powerful stimulation due to the microosccilation/explosive contractions from the instability. It seems that rings would complement the deadstop/explosive nature of the layer system well, with greater ROM, stabilizer development, and targetted tension (particulaly for lats and biceps, but also ring flyes for chest larry scott style). In fact, of the ancillary movements you recommended, it seems like rings could be an ideal substitute?

Ive been experimenting with this for awhile and the results have been great, but Im curious to hear if you saw additional value and perhaps have any trainees who are meshing the two training tools. I do notice the outside of elbows gets sore if I do ring work daily. Also a peculiar effect where my body seems to “tighten” or streamline a few hours after ring work whereas I feel “fuller” when I omit ring work after layering. Could be balancing excessive stimulatoin/volume, etc. so I’d appreciate your guidance. Thanks. [/quote]

I’ve been doing some ring chins and ring bicep curls for the 3-4 sets after high pull days. It’s working well for me, esp the ring biceps curls. CT has said that you can do whatever you want so long as you feel it working for you.

I also did 2 sets of ring flyes after a bench layer session last week and liked that. I really focus on the stretch (stretching a pumped muscle :wink: ) and ensure that the movement is controlled and not too exaggerated since ring flyes are quite risky; esp after the upper body pressing muscles are fatigued from the layer benching.

Perhaps doing a few easy sets of ring pushups and/or flyes before layer benching would be a useful warmup to prepare and activate the muscles esp the stabilisers.

[quote]-Sigil- wrote:
Hey CT, related question, have you experimented with using rings based support work after the layer workout? (i.e. ring pullups, ring rows, ring bicep curls on high pull day and various ring pressing variations after tilt days).

You’d previously mentioned (bootcamp 2?) that rings provided a unique and powerful stimulation due to the microosccilation/explosive contractions from the instability. It seems that rings would complement the deadstop/explosive nature of the layer system well, with greater ROM, stabilizer development, and targetted tension (particulaly for lats and biceps, but also ring flyes for chest larry scott style). In fact, of the ancillary movements you recommended, it seems like rings could be an ideal substitute?

Ive been experimenting with this for awhile and the results have been great, but Im curious to hear if you saw additional value and perhaps have any trainees who are meshing the two training tools. I do notice the outside of elbows gets sore if I do ring work daily. Also a peculiar effect where my body seems to “tighten” or streamline a few hours after ring work whereas I feel “fuller” when I omit ring work after layering. Could be balancing excessive stimulatoin/volume, etc. so I’d appreciate your guidance. Thanks. [/quote]

Honestly no, and I do not really have any intention of doing so. Im not saying that they do not have valuw though. Everytime I combined ring work with any type of intense lifting it messed up my nervous system. Sometimes neural fatigue is tricky and you do not see it comming, so just because something feels good for a short period of time, doesnt mean that it’s not wreaking havoc on your nervous system.

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]-Sigil- wrote:
Hey CT, related question, have you experimented with using rings based support work after the layer workout? (i.e. ring pullups, ring rows, ring bicep curls on high pull day and various ring pressing variations after tilt days).

You’d previously mentioned (bootcamp 2?) that rings provided a unique and powerful stimulation due to the microosccilation/explosive contractions from the instability. It seems that rings would complement the deadstop/explosive nature of the layer system well, with greater ROM, stabilizer development, and targetted tension (particulaly for lats and biceps, but also ring flyes for chest larry scott style). In fact, of the ancillary movements you recommended, it seems like rings could be an ideal substitute?

Ive been experimenting with this for awhile and the results have been great, but Im curious to hear if you saw additional value and perhaps have any trainees who are meshing the two training tools. I do notice the outside of elbows gets sore if I do ring work daily. Also a peculiar effect where my body seems to “tighten” or streamline a few hours after ring work whereas I feel “fuller” when I omit ring work after layering. Could be balancing excessive stimulatoin/volume, etc. so I’d appreciate your guidance. Thanks. [/quote]

Honestly no, and I do not really have any intention of doing so. Im not saying that they do not have valuw though. Everytime I combined ring work with any type of intense lifting it messed up my nervous system. Sometimes neural fatigue is tricky and you do not see it comming, so just because something feels good for a short period of time, doesnt mean that it’s not wreaking havoc on your nervous system.[/quote] yeah I’ve found this with rings. That’s why I’m keeping an eye on the few things I do with them.

BTW, I DO NOT consider ring curls, rings row, rings push ups and ring pull-ups to be “real” ring work… well yes it’s ring work, but not of the neurally challenging level.

The more challenging, CNS-intense ring work are lever work (front and back), dips (regular, bulgaria, korean), iron cross work, balancing work, etc.

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
BTW, I DO NOT consider ring curls, rings row, rings push ups and ring pull-ups to be “real” ring work… well yes it’s ring work, but not of the neurally challenging level.

The more challenging, CNS-intense ring work are lever work (front and back), dips (regular, bulgaria, korean), iron cross work, balancing work, etc.[/quote] yes of course, hence me using these way less intense exercises at the end of a few sessions. Certainly by using the CNS-intense rings movements would, as you say, most diffidently affect the body negatively when doing your layer approach.

Since I’m here, I just to say that my physique has changed more in the last 4-5 months of doing the layer approach than it has over the past 3-4 years. It’s the high pulls that have put some meat on my upper back and shoulder area creating a more dense look. My chest is bigger too. So, thank you for sharing this CT and I’m very much looking forward to the detailed layer approach :slight_smile:

Second health’s comments on your layering system, thanks again CT. Whats the deal with ring work? One would think the body should be able to handle all sorts of training, but I HAVE noticed that “neural” fatigue…it’s almost like sending random signals to the body messes it up. I guess ring curls/rows/chins/and flyes or pushups would be acceptable in your book?

Interesting you put dips as a challenging CNS work though it could be modified to be less so. I was originally picturing layering system for outsized traps, medial delts and upper pecs (from incline tilts), and then massive lats and biceps (which I think you said are best stimulated from holds/tension) from ring curls, rows, chins?