Weight-Training, Jesus Style?

Futuredave, I’m trying my best to live a Christian life in observance of God’s will and guidance. In the past its been a bit misguided, having been taught that the New Testament neccesarily wiped out the Old. However, as my own reading of the bible and related materials expands, I am finding that my previous understanding was limited at best by biased traditions.

You’ll note that as I stated before that this may or may not wind up being great for muscle building, but, I’ll try to work with whatever God gives me.

[quote]Moon Knight wrote:
Massif, thats why I wonder if there might be something more to it then the obvious Kosher laws set forth in Leviticus. Those seem to me like the absolute limits, but, perhaps not the optimal situation.

Think of it(potentially) like the difference between the RDA and the optimal dietary guidelines.

I’m not saying its a sure thing, but its something I enjoy exploring, and I’m glad to have the opinions of fellow brothers in Christ here.[/quote]

I’m a big believer in keeping things simple, so rather than me look up some truly old school nutrition, I’ll listen to my body and the effects different foods have on it. I’ll keep on eating good, wholesome, clean food (along with the occasional whole BBQ chicken wrapped in bacon). If the Bible is there for for spiritual guidance, I’ll use Bernardi’s Massive Eating for nutritional guidance.

Along with that, I don’t follow the Old Testament rules much anyway. Different time, different kind of jungle. I think much of the old testament is seriously flawed, and I don’t view Kosher nutrition any differently. But that is a different arguement all together.

Futuredave, I think you make a good point, but what exactly “the law” is a little open, no? Is it the Commandments or every aspect of the laws of Moses? If that’s the case, wouldn’t Jesus have broken the law when he cured the blind man on the Sabbath? (FYI, it’s nice to see this kind of discussion on T-nation… well, provided it does not turn ugly like most discussions on religion. lol)

Overall, Moon Knight, I have never been one to just flat out discount the Old Testament, but at the same time, the difference between the portrayal of God in the OT and NT is pretty striking. OT with Yahweh as a God of wrath and swift justice and the NT with Jesus presenting a God of total love and forgiveness. I’ve long wondered how to best reconcile these two portrayals. Anyone else struggle with this same dichotomy? I know (at least as a Catholic… I cannot speak to anyone else’s faith) that much of the focus in Mass is on the NT, but the OT is never ignored (since an OT reading is done every week).

Kuz

  • Return with honor.

As far as Daniel and his buddies, they ate the veggies so that they could remain kosher. Had nothing to do with wanting to be vegans! They would have had no problem with eating meat or other things if they could have done so without breaking God’s law.

Nowhere in the bible is vegetarianism advocated. In fact, it specifically says that fish, fowl, and beast were all put here to be used by man.

Of course, eating natural, whole foods is healthy and a great alternative to the processed foods of today.

Thanks for the theology lesson there, futuredave. I just asked for the reference for the half-truth you penned earlier.

Im a christian as well. Here are my thoughts on biblical diet. Im with the guys who say we can eat meat:)

Genesis 9:3 “every living thing that moves shall be food for you” (yay!)

Why i beleive God allowd us to eat meat after the fall of man, was that sin came into the world and with it, degeneration of nature. Thus before the fall, there was no muscle damage that needed to be recovered from. Thus no need to consume complete proteins.

[quote]futuredave wrote:
So… all God could manage to come up with were minimum daily requirements? He couldn’t even lay out the “optimal situation?” What a lame God you’re following there.
[/quote]

If he gave an “optimal situation”, then wouldn’t we be “required” to follow it, therefore leaving out much choice in dietary selections and much enjoyment of the food he provided? Providing boundaries seems a lot less “lame” to me than requiring the walking of a fine line. Nevermind the fact that providing an “optimal” dietary guide for billions of people might be a waste of time, when one’s body isn’t the most important thing in a religious context.

I think the original poster has the idea though - any Biblically-guided eating will most likely focus on overall health, something a bit different than what most of us here (including Berardi) are interested in.

One thing that I think many will find humoruos is the Bible’s treatment of gluttony. I’m amazed at the obese people you will see at church that just joke about their obsession with food.

Kuz, you bring up an interesting topic in regards to the dichotomy of the representations of God in the Old and New Testaments.

There have been a fair number of heresies over the years, dating back to the earliest days of the church, which included the doctrinal idea of a lesser divine being who was the Old Testament creator. The theory then was that Jesus was sent by the true supreme God to save us from the imperfect, earthly material realm created by this wannabe.

That has been the only explanation of the dichotomy I have ever seen beyound the old standby “God has many faces” or similar(which does not serve to explain the doctrinal differences in the teachings of Judaism, and Jesus). I’m still trying to decide how meritous the idea is, and whether I believe in its truth.

[quote]Moon Knight wrote:
Futuredave, I’m trying my best to live a Christian life in observance of God’s will and guidance. In the past its been a bit misguided, having been taught that the New Testament neccesarily wiped out the Old. However, as my own reading of the bible and related materials expands, I am finding that my previous understanding was limited at best by biased traditions.

You’ll note that as I stated before that this may or may not wind up being great for muscle building, but, I’ll try to work with whatever God gives me.[/quote]

Fair enough, Moon. I was raised in a very strict Christian household and taught the same thing. However, I have gotten to know some Orthodox Jews who actually know what the Old Testament says and I have been amazed at how often the information I was given as a Christian was just flat out wrong or a misinterpretation of Judaism.

Christians use Paul and Jesus to discard the Old Testament in the same way that the Muslims use Mohammed to rewrite the bible. Also, the Mormons do the same thing with Joseph Smith. This whole idea is “Oh, I’ve been given the true revelation, forget what everybody else before me said. Or whatever the book actually said. Here is the new truth!”

I commend you on your search for the truth. And wish you open-mindedness. It’s hard to escape from the narrow views we are sometimes ingrained with. I know it was for me.

p.s. Rainjack… what “half truth?” As for doing a little theological research for you, I’m surprised you didn’t do it yourself. To quote you on the Surge vs. Whey Protein Isolate thread: “Were you truly interested in an answer, you would have done the research and found an answer… Now you lazy asses want T-Nation to do your research for you… This is the nutritional supplement business - not the fucking Boy Scouts.”

[quote]Moon Knight wrote:
Kuz, you bring up an interesting topic in regards to the dichotomy of the representations of God in the Old and New Testaments.

There have been a fair number of heresies over the years, dating back to the earliest days of the church, which included the doctrinal idea of a lesser divine being who was the Old Testament creator. The theory then was that Jesus was sent by the true supreme God to save us from the imperfect, earthly material realm created by this wannabe.

That has been the only explanation of the dichotomy I have ever seen beyound the old standby “God has many faces” or similar(which does not serve to explain the doctrinal differences in the teachings of Judaism, and Jesus). I’m still trying to decide how meritous the idea is, and whether I believe in its truth.[/quote]

Moon… this is why I recommended you actually talk to a rabbi. To the Jews who know and understand the Old Testament, the God presented therein is a loving, merciful God, abounding with grace and forgiveness.

The kind of logic you are following is what lead to the self-righteousness that allowed Christians to murder tens of thousands of “pagan” Jews over the years.

[quote]
futuredave wrote:
And since Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law, then it is NOT abolished, no matter how Paul tried to justify his teachings. [/quote]

The half truth wa, you only quoted half of what Jesus said. You seem to have conveniently left off the part about him fulfilling the law.

That little omission makes a big difference. I knew the passage, I knew that you had it wrong. I was asking you to prove yourself, not asking for free research.

And wrt the Surge vs. Whey debate - I don’t think Biotest is in the theology business, nor was I asking an employee of T-Nation to find reasons for me not to like their supplement.

Hey, does anyone know where Jesus placed in the Mr.O contest? :wink:

[quote]CaptnJ wrote:
Im a christian as well. Here are my thoughts on biblical diet. Im with the guys who say we can eat meat:)

Genesis 9:3 “every living thing that moves shall be food for you” (yay!)

Why i beleive God allowd us to eat meat after the fall of man, was that sin came into the world and with it, degeneration of nature. Thus before the fall, there was no muscle damage that needed to be recovered from. Thus no need to consume complete proteins.

[/quote]

Some have claimed that that occurred after the flood as evidenced by the reduced lifespans.

[quote]rainjack wrote:

futuredave wrote:
And since Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law, then it is NOT abolished, no matter how Paul tried to justify his teachings.

The half truth wa, you only quoted half of what Jesus said. You seem to have conveniently left off the part about him fulfilling the law.

That little omission makes a big difference. I knew the passage, I knew that you had it wrong. I was asking you to prove yourself, not asking for free research.

And wrt the Surge vs. Whey debate - I don’t think Biotest is in the theology business, nor was I asking an employee of T-Nation to find reasons for me not to like their supplement.
[/quote]

Here is the quote in all the context you could wish for. In here Jesus repeatedly talks about the law and how he wants his followers follow it in their hearts, as well. THAT is the fulfillment of the law. Nowhere does he say not to follow the law.

It is no more okay for those who follow Christ’s teachings to commit adultery than it is for them not to keep kosher. At least, according to what Jesus said. That is my point.

Now, if you want to follow Paul instead of Jesus, that’s a different matter. This was the subject of great debate among early Christians. Those who were with Christ during his ministry disagreed vehemently with Paul. Paul never met Christ, but claimed to have been taken up into heaven where he was given additional revalations that Christ did not give his own disciples.

Here is a very lengthy version of the passage, which is from Jesus’ Sermon on The Mount in Matthew 5:

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. 21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. 25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. 27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: 32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. 33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God’s throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. 38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."

Entire link is here: http://bibleontheweb.com/Bible.asp

As for the research comment, no one was asking any employee of Biotest to do anything. The poster was asking the opinions of thos who had used Biotest products. If the products can’t stand up to scrutiny, then Biotest shouldn’t have a public message board. I however believe they can.

Futuredave, I’m not completely sold on the idea of two seperate "God"s, but, I was just trying to say I’m openminded enough to keep it as a possability.

Whether they were seperate or the same, however, I feel that the Old Testament was certainly the go-to book in regards to laws and behaviour on Earth, while the New Testament was geared more largely toward spirituality and salvation. Whether each was speeking about the same God or not, they both deserve research for a complete picture of religion.

There’s quite a difference between disagreeing with Judaism, and burning Jews at the stake. Jesus would not have approved of the latter certainly, no matter what one thinks his views on Judaism were.

By the way, I like your idea of talking to a rabbi, that might be interesting.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
CaptnJ wrote:
Im a christian as well. Here are my thoughts on biblical diet. Im with the guys who say we can eat meat:)

Genesis 9:3 “every living thing that moves shall be food for you” (yay!)

Why i beleive God allowd us to eat meat after the fall of man, was that sin came into the world and with it, degeneration of nature. Thus before the fall, there was no muscle damage that needed to be recovered from. Thus no need to consume complete proteins.

Some have claimed that that occurred after the flood as evidenced by the reduced lifespans.[/quote]

I wouldn’t neccesarily attribute the decline in lifespans to the degeneration of nature. I have a feeling this is where CaptnJ(or his minister) got the idea that nature was degenerating, and thus the theory of no muscle damage before that.

The way I read it, it seems that the decline in lifespan was not a sign of degeneration, but rather of the co-mingling of the sons of God with the daughters of man.

Whatever, dude.

This thread wasn’t set up for this debate. If you want to have a debate over how wrong you think Paul’s teachings are, maybe you should think about starting your own thread.

I have found that debating these topics usually turns into a big yelling match. You believe what you want, and I’ll believe what I want. Fair enough?

Just a little suggestion

I think that reading the book titled “The Makers Diet” will help answer a lot of questions in regards to what foods a biblically sound. I found it a pretty good read, and it was interesting how similar the dietary guidelines in that book are to the Paleo diet. The guy who wrote it is a “Messianic Jew” and he is damn smart. I do not follow the diet exactly, but like I said you will see similarities between it and much of the nutrition information found here on T-Nation, of coarse large quantities of protein need to be added, and forget about the fasting.

Regards,
bamit

[quote]Moon Knight wrote:
Futuredave, I’m not completely sold on the idea of two seperate "God"s, but, I was just trying to say I’m openminded enough to keep it as a possability.[/quote]

Actually, the idea is not that there was a competing God who authored the new testament. Since there is only One God, there can be no competing God, see? Instead, some early Christian postulated that the Old Testament was authored by satan.

True dat. However, history proves that many others have not been as enlightened on this matter.

[quote]
By the way, I like your idea of talking to a rabbi, that might be interesting.[/quote]

I wish you well in your quest for truth. It’s a long road. Stay with it.

I’m not a religious person, but we have been given free will. I don’t think that means that every aspect of our lives should be scripted and outlined for us.

On another note, unless you are Jewish, the Jewish rules don’t apply to you. According to them the rest of us should live by the Noahide laws.

http://www.ahavat-israel.com/ahavat/am/goyim.asp

I like this idea, because it makes life pretty damned simple. And, a pun may or may not have been intended. Anyway, if you are looking to a Jewish interpretation to guide your life, you might want to make sure it actually would apply to you.

The way a non-orthodox person explained it to me one time, following the rules in the modern era, for them, represented a gesture of respect.

Anyway, to get right down to it, if there were hard and fast rules laid out concerning eating, and what to eat, perhaps we wouldn’t be sifting the sand for clues.

If some almighty being felt there was something important about our food consumption, do you really think it would have been left unclear to us?

This is my take on most controversial religious issues. If it was important to do the right thing, maybe the right thing would be explained in enough detail that we’d know without having to squint and read between the lines.