Weight Training For Mid Distance Runner?

[quote]creed wrote:
And squatting near to the limit of ones strength doesn’t really have that much of a negative effect by way of decceleration because the athlete is straining to lock out the near maximal load. [/quote]

Again, just speaking about force. I remember several years ago I could struggle up with a 345 squat, but I could do 700 for 10 reps the last 3 inches. Using a max weight of 345, there’s no way I was pushing that hard at the end or else I would have thrown it off of my back.

Also, again a 200 pound individual with a 400 pound squat would (all reflexes aside) verticle jump 70-80 inches if they applied 400 pounds of force during the entire range of an unloaded squat. Training yourself to fully extend powerfully is important. If a sprinter had a poor first 20 meters, ANY strength should help, but sprinters with a good start don’t benefit as much from full range strength building and for a 1500 runner, whether they cover the first 20 in 2.7 or 3.2 doesn’t matter that much.

Also, by the way, more power on the hip drive is important as well as on the pawback. You can do powerful hip raises THROUGH a band crossed over horizontally in the rack.

For Squats, I think using enough band tension so that you can only use about half of your max in raw weight, and trying to accelerate maximally is far superior to squats without bands.

Also, I don’t like cleans because most trainees can do far more for an explosive rack high pull with bands than with a clean, and less wrist strain.

Also, if I did maximal squats with barweight only and then went out and tested a verticle, it would probably be down, and stay down for 2-3 days. If I did squats with lots of bands and tried to accelerate and then went out an tested my verticle, it would be up 2-3 inches instantly.

Squats are certainly good, but I don’t think in-season for 1500 meters.

Just my opinions.

I think you guys are missing the point. Maximum strength is good for strength athletes, but distance running as a bit different.

One of my XC coaches in high school was a national champion and he could only squat 135. (For plenty of reps of course). Working on strength weaknesses is useful, but going for max load is a mistake.

[quote]:quarkthedark: wrote:
I think you guys are missing the point. Maximum strength is good for strength athletes, but distance running as a bit different.

One of my XC coaches in high school was a national champion and he could only squat 135. (For plenty of reps of course). Working on strength weaknesses is useful, but going for max load is a mistake. [/quote]

But for 1500 meters? Maximal speed is the ultimate limiting factor here.

Anyway, if your tendons are properly trained with plyometrics to transmit force, you will be more efficient step for step.

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
:quarkthedark: wrote:
I think you guys are missing the point. Maximum strength is good for strength athletes, but distance running as a bit different.

One of my XC coaches in high school was a national champion and he could only squat 135. (For plenty of reps of course). Working on strength weaknesses is useful, but going for max load is a mistake.

But for 1500 meters? Maximal speed is the ultimate limiting factor here.

Anyway, if your tendons are properly trained with plyometrics to transmit force, you will be more efficient step for step.
[/quote]

i agree… take a runner who can barely do 25’s a side, for 5 reps ( full squats to parallel), and get him to doing 1 plate a side, for reps of 8 and you got yourself a stronger and better runner.

You’d be surprised in the lack of strength and flexibility many runners have. especially in over developing specific muscles, like quads over hamstrings. and weak hip flexors.

One key thing i notice with female runners, is they have no knee lift, which is probably from weak hip flexors, and probably just form, they dont know to lift

for v:I agree with your assessment. Maybe i misspoke, what i ment to say was that training Maximal strength (i.e. 1RM-3RM) would be bad. Increasing the ability to do more weight at high reps is fine. MOstly my response was to the people talking about 1RMs. CNS isn’t much of an issue for endurance athletes.

In regards to knee drive, that can be a funny issue. (as i think the cause of bad knee drive is different between sprinters and distance runners). I am all for improving the p-chain though.

Mert, the tendon strength is obtainned from plyos. As to whether max speed is a limiting factor, it really depends on the runner. If she started her athletic career with shorter races and moved up later (like a lot of middle distance guys), this might not be the problems. Likewise if she is coming from longer races, you could be right.

All in all, probably Coe’s book or Vigil’s book would be the best place to look. I don’t know how much help we can give, as we don’t know too much about the athlete in particular.

BTW, it is nice to have good discussion here.

[quote]:quarkthedark: wrote:
for v:I agree with your assessment. Maybe i misspoke, what i ment to say was that training Maximal strength (i.e. 1RM-3RM) would be bad. Increasing the ability to do more weight at high reps is fine. MOstly my response was to the people talking about 1RMs. CNS isn’t much of an issue for endurance athletes.

In regards to knee drive, that can be a funny issue. (as i think the cause of bad knee drive is different between sprinters and distance runners). I am all for improving the p-chain though.

Mert, the tendon strength is obtainned from plyos. As to whether max speed is a limiting factor, it really depends on the runner. If she started her athletic career with shorter races and moved up later (like a lot of middle distance guys), this might not be the problems. Likewise if she is coming from longer races, you could be right.

All in all, probably Coe’s book or Vigil’s book would be the best place to look. I don’t know how much help we can give, as we don’t know too much about the athlete in particular.

BTW, it is nice to have good discussion here. [/quote]

Mertdawg said that tendon strength can be obtained through plyos. I believe he was trying to say that if the tendons are as strong as they ought to be, you should see more carryover from heavy strength training than you say. Maximal strength (1RM) is the basis for all other types of strength. Improving it will yield improvements in every other type of strength, (strength endurance, speed strength…)a possible exception being elite lifters). I think it would be best to always stay in the moderate intensity range and keep the volume LOW. Overall The program should be close to that of a sprinter- sticking with the money exercises- but the main difference is somewhat lowered intensity and much lower total volume.

[quote]:quarkthedark: wrote:

All in all, probably Coe’s book or Vigil’s book would be the best place to look. I don’t know how much help we can give, as we don’t know too much about the athlete in particular.

BTW, it is nice to have good discussion here. [/quote]

i actually have Coe’s book, but havent read all of it. It reads like a textbook though! Anyway I think we need to meet in the middle between the ultimate track/running coach, and the ultimate strength training coach. True a running coach knows how to train the running, endurance, race tactics, speed work, but teh strength coach is used to increase athletic strength and power, which can be used in any sport.

What I’m saying is I think both is needed, and this is great that deanosumo is doing the strength part, while the track coach does the running part. TOGETHER a great athlete will come about. I’m sure all the pro’s dont have just 1 coach. They have many.

Yea it is good to have a great discussion on a topic. I hope deanosumo comes back and replies. Too many times I see people post a question, usually newbies with 1 or 2 posts, that are too lazy to research and never even read their own post and come back to update, but ds seems to be not like this… so just come back and update.

Being a huge fan of Ian King’s theories on athletic training I would use strength training to act more as a way to correct muscle imbalances and for injury prevention. As he has rightfully pointed out you can focus on 2 things with a training program - 1) Performance enhancment or 2) Injury prevention. If you’re hurt it don’t matter how “fit” you are. With this in mind I would focus on hip dominant movements (deads) over quad dominant movements (squats) and focus more on pulling movements than pushing as most runners tend to have strength deficits between these two groups. Runners also get plenty of endurance work as is so I would also focus more on the qualities they can’t/ don’t focus on in practice like max strength and power levels. Doing a light weight for a bunch of reps is worthless IMHO. Why keep focusing on qualities that already get plenty of focus?

His Get Buffed! series does a phenomonal job of breaking down program design to a very simple level. Of course, starting strength training in season would mean a completely differrent approach than in the off-season. Where is this runner in her season?

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
creed wrote:
And squatting near to the limit of ones strength doesn’t really have that much of a negative effect by way of decceleration because the athlete is straining to lock out the near maximal load.

Again, just speaking about force. I remember several years ago I could struggle up with a 345 squat, but I could do 700 for 10 reps the last 3 inches. Using a max weight of 345, there’s no way I was pushing that hard at the end or else I would have thrown it off of my back.

[/quote]

What your saying seems to make sense but I know from squeezing out my maxes that the last bit is still bloody hard. I think that comes from having to produce so much strength lower down in the movement that by the top there isn’t much left to engage by way of muscle fibres. I don’t think that you’d be able to generate that 700lbs of overcoming force at the top if you’d had to do your 345lb max in the same ROM just prior. Or else you’d be able to jump off the ground with that 345lb max once you reached the last three inches of the movement.

The heavier the load the shorter the decceleration phase because the bar speed is much less there simply isn’t a need to apply the brakes as much.