T Nation

Weekend Drinkers, What's Been Your Results?

First, I understand how alcohol really has no place in anyone’s life. I don’t drink at all during the week anymore. In the past and currently I can cut drinking entirely. In the future, when I get back to BIG and able to lift unrestricted in the gym I see myself probably cutting back to only Saturday and/or Sunday and probably hitting some cardio on a Friday night. This thread really isn’t about getting flak…it’s for those that do drink giving their experiences.

I am not even on my full lifting program yet and seeing nice losses and ok gains (considering I am stuck to light weight/15 reps right now).

I only drink light beer (4.1%, 11.5g alcohol/95-100 cals), I have been cutting back from around 40 a weekend to around a case. When I drink I no longer allow myself any snacks and plan my meals accordingly. Also if it makes a difference this consumption is over a period of several hours and never am I ‘drunk’.

From my understanding on TRT, the effects of hormone suppression are limited. There is some damage to the testosterone and some estrogen addition…but it’s mitigated a bit. Also from my understanding, if you are accounting for those calories in your diet; you are mitgating much of the fat gain that comes from these empty calories. Even more so if you cut out the snacking many fall into or worse downing a full pizza or tub of ice cream. Fortunately, I have never been a foodie.

My diet is pretty much the same lunch wise per day. A 4-6 oz chicken breast, lettuce/tomato, two slices of bread and low fat honey/mustand only. My dinners are a small portion of lean meat, veggies, a salad (lettuce, tomato, green pepper, carrot, celery) with light dressing and only a bit. Last night was 4 lean turkey meatballs and zucchini with a little pasta, green beans and green salad. Tonight I plan to eat the left overs of that. In the past there was never left overs :).

I have dropped 10lbs in the past 3-4 weeks and last week started HRT (200mg Test Cyp/Eth (90%/10%) / 100mg Deca once a week, 1mg Armi a week, and .5ml of HCG 2x a week).

I have cut out all sodas (was a big diet coke drinker) and now stick to real green tea and water. I am hitting the gym at least 3x a week. I walk about 1.5 miles a day and going to start increasing that to 4 miles.

Anyway I understand no alcohol is the best path and if I was competing almost impossible to keep, but what has been your happy medium for you guys that just don’t want to cut it out.

I find there not to be a happy medium, I usually have to care or not care. When I drink it tends to be about 5 or more. I can get stronger but random injuries seem to happen. The immediate effect is usually better looking maybe even stronger the next morning but very little progress at all over the long run.

You drink 40 beers on a weekend ? So, is that fri sat & sun ? Something like 13 beers each day ?

Who includes Deca in TRT? In my experience so far the right amount of T is enough as far as androgenics/anabolics are concerned. I don’t drink anymore so nothing to add there.

[quote]PKNY wrote:
You drink 40 beers on a weekend ? So, is that fri sat & sun ? Something like 13 beers each day ?
[/quote]

I take it you didn’t read carefully and want to comment on the drinking only.

I used to drink about 40 beers a weekend, I have since cut it down to around 24 Fri to Sun.

On a Friday night, perhaps only 6 beers assuming I am up until midnight. Sat and Sun once I get home from the gym, dog park, cutting the lawn, etc I like to have beers throughout the day. Figure 2pm to about midnight so it’s just slow and steady, but by the end of the day probably 8-12 beers.

More than likely that will be cut back further, the more I train the less I want to take in anything extra…even at my peak though it was rare I didn’t have drinks two days a week with at least one of those days being over six beers. I was able to stay lean and my gains kept increasing.

There have been months I didn’t drink anything and I can’t say my gains were much different.

[quote]CactusBeats wrote:
Who includes Deca in TRT? In my experience so far the right amount of T is enough as far as androgenics/anabolics are concerned. I don’t drink anymore so nothing to add there.[/quote]

Deca was added mostly for my shoulder recovery and is only for 8 weeks. This is not a topic for my stack, I have a topic on that stack in the forum already.

I didn’t mean to sound judgmental bro. I did see that you cut down to 24 in a weekend, and I can relate.
I drink red wine daily, anywhere from 6-12 or so ounces and I stay lean.
When I abstain, I do notice more energy and feel a little more centered.
Your TRT does sound a bit extreme, 200mg Test and 100mg Deca is bordering a cycle and way more
than most trt does I have ever seen.
If I can ask, where does that much test put your level ?

[quote]PKNY wrote:
I didn’t mean to sound judgmental bro. I did see that you cut down to 24 in a weekend, and I can relate.
I drink red wine daily, anywhere from 6-12 or so ounces and I stay lean.
When I abstain, I do notice more energy and feel a little more centered.
Your TRT does sound a bit extreme, 200mg Test and 100mg Deca is bordering a cycle and way more
than most trt does I have ever seen.
If I can ask, where does that much test put your level ?
[/quote]

We don’t know yet. My test was around at 325 peak which is really bad, my free test not so good either. I was on a crash diet (1000-1500 cals a day) and my weight not budging, my blood pressure high, no energy, etc.

At 8 weeks I will be getting a full blood panel again. I am only on my second week (I inject Test/Deca on Tues, HCG/Arimidex on Thurs and another HCG on Sat).

I don’t really feel different like night and day…I have noticed more energy and not getting tired so easy. My wife has noticed me taking care of more things and more active though.

Sounds like you might be insulin resistant. I had fasting glucose of 95, which is in range, but I had trouble dropping weight at all, even on low carb and low calories. I used Metformin for two months 850mg per day in month one and 1700 in month two, and it got my fasting glucose to 84. I was able to lose weight and feel more energetic. If you consider it, you will have to drop alcohol at least back to at most 1 drink per day, Metformin
and alcohol can cases lactic acidosis, its rare but documented.
Keep in mind, too much test even with an AI can also cause lethargy.
POst your blood work when it comes in, your TRT protocol sounds interesting.

You are doing almost everything wrong. I’m just going to type this all here so I don’t have to go to three separate threads to post three separate responses. I don’t mean to lecture you…well, maybe I do. You’re an adult and are responsible for your choices, and those choices have been really irresponsible.

First off, you haven’t posted any of your labs on any thread, except to mention that you had a TT level of 320, and some mention, with no numbers, of “Free T that isn’t good either”. I’m guessing you haven’t had more than just the one lab taken, and getting on testosterone without more than one lab is stupid.

Your “high school buddy” needs to have his medical license revoked if he is actually prescribing you 200mg Test-C/E and 100mg Deca right off the bat, without you having more labs done, getting a diagnosis of Primary vs Secondary, or even starting you at the standard starting dose of 100mg/wk. I’m guessing you aren’t getting your scripts from him, or that if you are, TRT is FAR outside his field of expertise.

Injecting all that T only once a week is dumb. Not as dumb as injecting Adex only once a week, though. And even that pales in comparison to your retardedly high dosing of 5000kIU hCG (on two threads you say it’s 5k, on this one you say it’s .5ml without saying the concentration) and the decision to inject only twice a week. Bodybuilders don’t even inject that much hCG for PCT or In Cycle! And you’re going to do that for life? I can tell you spent less than 5 minutes researching this before starting.

You are insulting us all by calling this Testosterone REPLACEMENT Therapy, and further insult us by obviously not reading any of the Stickies, but instead asking away on either unrelated topics or topics thoroughly covered in the Stickies. The fact that your first thread was asking if getting on TRT will help you recover from surgery shows that you don’t care about your health, or doing what is medically necessary, but about getting on the juice.

That’s fine if you want to do that, but don’t pretend you’re doing this for medical reasons. If you were, you would have had more than one lab, read the stickies (which have been around a long time before your first post in June), and known that the protocol you’re on right now is screwed up for so many reasons.

“Deca was added mostly for my shoulder recovery and is only for 8 weeks”

There is no way a doctor prescribed this. Deca’s only used for anemia of the kidneys, osteoporosis in post-menopausal women, and by anti-aging clinics who aren’t legit doctors that prescribe as much as their patient wants and they can legally give out. And why are you doing an 8 week cycle? You still aren’t supposed to be lifting heavy weights as per your recovery, so adding extra juice in the mix is stupid when you’ll make about the same gains naturally since you have limitations to how much you can do.

You’re using a chainsaw when gardening shears would work fine. You’re doing Deca so in 2 months you can move from the yellow theraband to the black, instead of just the green? Or go from doing 12lbs on curls for 20 reps to doing 25lbs? That is an unbelievably stupid reason to do Deca. You’ll either not have too much of a change in results between doing and not doing Deca, or you’ll end up pushing your recovery too fast and fuck up your shoulder again. Both options suck.

And as for your exercise protocol questions: Ask your damn doctor! You know, the guy who stuck complicated medical equipment in your shoulder for an hour or two. He’s the one who should monitor your therapy, along with a physical therapist. I know you stopped seeing your PT, but why the hell wouldn’t you ask them to write out a home-exercise protocol? This again just shows how little you care about your health and recovery.

I’ve gone through 4 shoulder operations. I wouldn’t dream of doing anything without clearing it with my Ortho first. If you’re anxious to go back under the knife, by all means ask a bunch of guys on T-Nation forums, who have no PT training and don’t know the nuances of your particular case, how you should be lifting weights without the go-ahead from your doctor.

And finally to the drinking. You are what? 2-3 months out of surgery? I don’t know if you still take painkillers, but if you do and are drinking that much you are going to fuck your liver. And I mean hard. Deca can make this even worse. That aside, your body is still recovering from the surgery. You need all your resources going to the muscles, tendons, connective tissue, blood rebuilding, and fighting off infections, all of which took a hit when you got cut open. And now you’re worried about how binge drinking will affect your fat loss? You need to get your priorities straight.

Go to an actual doctor, get some actual labs, or stop posting in the “T Replacement” sub-section.

[quote]PKNY wrote:
Sounds like you might be insulin resistant. I had fasting glucose of 95, which is in range, but I had trouble dropping weight at all, even on low carb and low calories. I used Metformin for two months 850mg per day in month one and 1700 in month two, and it got my fasting glucose to 84. I was able to lose weight and feel more energetic. If you consider it, you will have to drop alcohol at least back to at most 1 drink per day, Metformin
and alcohol can cases lactic acidosis, its rare but documented.
Keep in mind, too much test even with an AI can also cause lethargy.
POst your blood work when it comes in, your TRT protocol sounds interesting.[/quote]

The lack of weight loss when I am idle has been something my primary care doctor and I have been looking at since right after I turned 31 (10 years ago). My metabolism is fine, my insulin and glucose levels are fine, no cancer, etc. My testosterone has been dropping though over these years. Oddly in 12/2011 it was 585 for some reason, but all other tests have shown it very low with my most current taken at 8am in the morning showing it below the range. The Free test only at 9 which is in the range, but not so good. Estrogens are actually in a good area.

My energy levels have been very good.

[quote]ctastrophe wrote:
You are doing almost everything wrong. I’m just going to type this all here so I don’t have to go to three separate threads to post three separate responses. I don’t mean to lecture you…well, maybe I do. You’re an adult and are responsible for your choices, and those choices have been really irresponsible.

First off, you haven’t posted any of your labs on any thread, except to mention that you had a TT level of 320, and some mention, with no numbers, of “Free T that isn’t good either”. I’m guessing you haven’t had more than just the one lab taken, and getting on testosterone without more than one lab is stupid.
[/quote]

Sigh. Ok bro this is exactly what I didn’t ask for here, it’s obvious you have some kind of chip on your shoulder.

I don’t need the forum to review my medical records, I don’t have all of them here to scan in and post anyway. This has been a ten year trend now.

[quote]ctastrophe wrote:

Your “high school buddy” needs to have his medical license revoked if he is actually prescribing you 200mg Test-C/E and 100mg Deca right off the bat, without you having more labs done, getting a diagnosis of Primary vs Secondary, or even starting you at the standard starting dose of 100mg/wk. I’m guessing you aren’t getting your scripts from him, or that if you are, TRT is FAR outside his field of expertise.
[/quote]

The guy you are referring to as my ‘high school buddy’ was the doctor that recommended I look into HRT. The doctor that prescribed it was a cardiologist. Also the majority of my seven year college education was in biology and chemistry leading to pharmacy (which I was accepted to and decided I didn’t want to be a Pharmacist after all). I read a lot about steroids in my late teens/20’s and knew many on them. I learned a lot more again when my dog was recommended to be put on Winstrol. It helped her a lot.

I have been talking a lot to others on HRT, I was still leary to post / ask about it online as I wasn’t sure of the stigma out there. In the 90’s even mentioning you took a steroid had you rolled into the IV drug crowd.

This is a 10 week ‘cycle’ with blood work being done on the 8th week. The big thing right now is also to help me recover from surgery so the Deca added in is for that reason and that part is only going to be for the first 8 weeks.

[quote]ctastrophe wrote:
Injecting all that T only once a week is dumb. Not as dumb as injecting Adex only once a week, though. And even that pales in comparison to your retardedly high dosing of 5000kIU hCG (on two threads you say it’s 5k, on this one you say it’s .5ml without saying the concentration) and the decision to inject only twice a week. Bodybuilders don’t even inject that much hCG for PCT or In Cycle! And you’re going to do that for life? I can tell you spent less than 5 minutes researching this before starting.[/quote]

Adex <> Arimidex. I take a 1mg capsule once a week. This is definitely proven to be ok. Some like to do .25 EOD, if I start showing effects from it in the larger dose; they will break it up. We are dealing with half lifes as well.

If I was going to be doing 200mg/100mg long term then we’d probably break it up, once I am on 200mg of Test Cyp/Eth things aren’t going to change much from 100mg 2x a week to 200mg 1x a week. You are still within the half-life.

My threads state I am on 10,000IU which is the concentration of the vial and I take .5ml of it 2 times a week. I really am not thinking you are understanding what you are reading and just trying to come off as some Broheim.

[quote]ctastrophe wrote:
You are insulting us all by calling this Testosterone REPLACEMENT Therapy, and further insult us by obviously not reading any of the Stickies, but instead asking away on either unrelated topics or topics thoroughly covered in the Stickies. The fact that your first thread was asking if getting on TRT will help you recover from surgery shows that you don’t care about your health, or doing what is medically necessary, but about getting on the juice.
[/quote]

I did read those stickies, which is why I have posted this thread. It’s obvious YOU don’t care about the forum or you wouldn’t be derailing this thread with utter nonsense.

[quote]ctastrophe wrote:
That’s fine if you want to do that, but don’t pretend you’re doing this for medical reasons. If you were, you would have had more than one lab, read the stickies (which have been around a long time before your first post in June), and known that the protocol you’re on right now is screwed up for so many reasons.

“Deca was added mostly for my shoulder recovery and is only for 8 weeks”

There is no way a doctor prescribed this. Deca’s only used for anemia of the kidneys, osteoporosis in post-menopausal women, and by anti-aging clinics who aren’t legit doctors that prescribe as much as their patient wants and they can legally give out. And why are you doing an 8 week cycle? You still aren’t supposed to be lifting heavy weights as per your recovery, so adding extra juice in the mix is stupid when you’ll make about the same gains naturally since you have limitations to how much you can do.
[/quote]

Much like HCG is not really to prevent your nuts from shrivelling up, but guess what that’s what most of use are taking it for. I really think it’s you that are clueless in this. Steroids aid in recovery and rebuilding majorly they are not just about putting on muscle.

[quote]ctastrophe wrote:
You’re using a chainsaw when gardening shears would work fine. You’re doing Deca so in 2 months you can move from the yellow theraband to the black, instead of just the green? Or go from doing 12lbs on curls for 20 reps to doing 25lbs? That is an unbelievably stupid reason to do Deca. You’ll either not have too much of a change in results between doing and not doing Deca, or you’ll end up pushing your recovery too fast and fuck up your shoulder again. Both options suck.[/quote]

Lol, it’s been a while since therabands…I am doing 30lb DB for my curls at 15 reps. I was doing more than double that prior. I have been lifting for a very long time. I know my limits and only have been hurt minorly in the past with usually a cervical strain. You want to assume it’s only you that are the expert in this field and sadly you are so enraged you aren’t even getting my facts right. Chill out man and move on to another thread.

[quote]ctastrophe wrote:
And as for your exercise protocol questions: Ask your damn doctor! You know, the guy who stuck complicated medical equipment in your shoulder for an hour or two. He’s the one who should monitor your therapy, along with a physical therapist. I know you stopped seeing your PT, but why the hell wouldn’t you ask them to write out a home-exercise protocol? This again just shows how little you care about your health and recovery. [/quote]

Wow, now you just went full mental. Not many doctors will prescribe a weight training regime. I got plenty of home exercises to do, plenty of rubber band recommendations.

I have found my best recommendations for workouts come from those that are doing them.

It’s like asking about “who is the best in the area to put a windshield in my M3?” Some asshat like yourself told me I was stupid for asking and just go with anyone your insurance recommends. Well now I am on windshield #3 this week. First was an aftermarket that didn’t fit properly, then they authorized the factory glass and somehow the tech or the glass was bad as it cracked that night.

[quote]ctastrophe wrote:
I’ve gone through 4 shoulder operations. I wouldn’t dream of doing anything without clearing it with my Ortho first. If you’re anxious to go back under the knife, by all means ask a bunch of guys on T-Nation forums, who have no PT training and don’t know the nuances of your particular case, how you should be lifting weights without the go-ahead from your doctor.
[/quote]

It sounds like you need to figure out your own mess! Four surgeries?!!? Either you are doing things wrong or your surgeon is a quack!

BTW my surgeon told me to stop PT and get into the gym. He wants just 15 reps and that is what I am trying to get advice to work around. My PT wants rubber bands and weighted balls.

I can keep hiring other people or just ask the questions on forums where some members may very well be PTs and/or Doctors.

You seem very angry though. I’d get over that and get back to healthy. Are you just ticked that I am recovering so fast?

[quote]ctastrophe wrote:
And finally to the drinking. You are what? 2-3 months out of surgery? I don’t know if you still take painkillers, but if you do and are drinking that much you are going to fuck your liver. And I mean hard. Deca can make this even worse. That aside, your body is still recovering from the surgery. You need all your resources going to the muscles, tendons, connective tissue, blood rebuilding, and fighting off infections, all of which took a hit when you got cut open. And now you’re worried about how binge drinking will affect your fat loss? You need to get your priorities straight.[/quote]

Again…you want to make all these assumptions and play you know things no one else does. I took a total of two painkillers after my surgery. The one I was recommended when I got home and the other I was recommended prior to bed and then every 4-6 hours. Those two were the only ones I took. That following Friday I was out of my sling (8 days), that Monday I started Physical Therapy. I have not taken anything for pain since those two percocets. In my 20’s, I was drinking 12 beers each day on average. My liver was fine. Much like growing up I drank three 2 liter bottles of Coke a day and at 41 I have only had my first minor filling just for a soft spot, not even a full cavity.

I am at no risk for infection any longer…again you seem to think you understand it all, but you really don’t. You are adding things to the question that if I had as issues, I would have introduced.

[quote]ctastrophe wrote:
Go to an actual doctor, get some actual labs, or stop posting in the “T Replacement” sub-section.[/quote]

You should ask to be a moderator, bro.

In the thread: http://tnation.T-Nation.com/hub/alkemyst#myForums/thread/5322546/
“My therapy is 200mg Test Cyp/100mg Deca 1x week, HCG/Amitrix 5000 IU 1x week, and another 5000 IU HCG 1x week.”

Yes, it is hard to understand WTF you are talking about, but when you have “5000 IU” next to “HCG” twice, it would lead one to believe that you were taking 5000 IU of HCG twice a week. Either that or your “Amitrix”/HCG combo was 5000 IU total and you’re taking less than 5k IU of HCG once a week, and 5000k IU once a week.

“BTW my surgeon told me to stop PT and get into the gym. He wants just 15 reps and that is what I am trying to get advice to work around. My PT wants rubber bands and weighted balls.”

So your surgeon tells you to go to the gym, but not what exercises to do? Also, PTs do the exercise protocols that your doctor recommends, so there shouldn’t be a disconnect between the PT and doctor; The PT is supposed to do what the doctor says. And at this point in your recovery, stabilization-strength is far more important than isolated muscle strength. Weighted balls are far more effective than dumbbells for this.

Not that it matters, but I’ve had 4 surgeries because I got hit by a drunk driver and have needed reconstructive surgery. It had to be done in stages.

“I know my limits and only have been hurt minorly in the past with usually a cervical strain.”

You mean, until you got a SLAP tear, right?

“You seem very angry though. I’d get over that and get back to healthy. Are you just ticked that I am recovering so fast?”

Yeah, you got me! I’m so super jealous of you and I can’t seem to control it. It started two months ago when you were asking if steroids would speed your recovery, and I knew back then that I would never be as awesome as you, the man who cast aside his therapist and any semblance of an actual post-surgery protocol, in order to become the best shoulder-healer in the world. You can see why I couldn’t contain my jealousy too long.

“Much like HCG is not really to prevent your nuts from shrivelling up”

No, Deca being used as post-surgery recovery is NOT like hCG being used for testicular pain and shrinkage. If you can’t understand the difference, then me explaining it won’t do any good anyway.

“I did read those stickies, which is why I have posted this thread. It’s obvious YOU don’t care about the forum or you wouldn’t be derailing this thread with utter nonsense.”

If you had read the stickies you wouldn’t be doing the “protocol” you are doing, plain and simple.

And here is the crux of the matter:
“I don’t need the forum to review my medical records, I don’t have all of them here to scan in and post anyway. This has been a ten year trend now.”
And:
“This is a 10 week ‘cycle’ with blood work being done on the 8th week.”

This sub-forum is for guys who are figuring out their life-long TRT protocol. It is for guys to figure out what is going wrong with them, and what they should do about it. It isn’t for people who haven’t had complete labs. It absolutely isn’t for people figuring out their cycle. I don’t care if you do steroids, have nothing against steroids, and am all for you doing steroids. What I do object to is you going to the “T Replacement” sub-forum to ask these asinine questions instead of going to the “Steroids” sub-forum. You come to an area where guys are figuring out their health issues to talk about your 10 weeks cycle (which isn’t even a cycle - dosing too low for that) instead of going to the Forums where people who aren’t talking TRT go to discuss using testosterone.

If your goal isn’t to get advice on TRT, isn’t to discuss your symptoms and labs, and you aren’t actually on TRT, then why would you post on a TRT Forum?

I mean, you really think that asking about heavy-drinking’s effect on fat loss is an appropriate topic for the T Replacement Forum? You really think discussing a 10-week cycle is an appropriate topic for the T Replacement Forum, and not the Steroid Forum?

Just read the case-files of any other guy on here and see the difference between what they are doing and what you are doing. Since you don’t have questions about TRT or TRT protocol then why are you posting in the TRT section?

“Ok bro this is exactly what I didn’t ask for here, it’s obvious you have some kind of chip on your shoulder.”

I completely do. I hate guys who abuse the medical system to do stupid things and call it “TRT” because you lump all of us who need TRT in with you. Most of us have gone through and are going through serious shit, and take this small community on “T Replacement” seriously. I hate how we get an influx of guys asking how to get on TRT in the Spring and Summer months, guys who obviously just want a legal way to get on the Juice.

That’s the chip on my shoulder. And it has every reason to be there.

Catastrophe, you were totally clueless when you joined only a few months ago. You believe you can ‘feel’ your testosterone drop after 4 days when that is extremely unlikely. You want to change your own doctor’s recommendations.

I have since corrected what I posted in other threads, and will edit that one. I was originally told I would be on 5000IU at .5ml, it was decided to go to 10000IU at .5ml. No one would think when someone is talking 5000IU or 10000IU they are taking the full vial. I left out the dosage, you go ballistic.

My SLAP tear was due to two kids pushing my bar sideways while doing squats. Not due to bad genetics or improper form. You need to find some other person to attack, you are being very angry for some reason.

You think all of use are out to steal your ‘secret’ that you had to earn in blood by losing a nut. The problem is you clearing have no understanding in the arena you are debating and are just learning as you go.

You need to figure out your own issues, I have a legitmate need for TRT and if I wanted to get on the juice it would be very easy to living in one of the major equestrian areas of the world.

Yes, I didn’t know anything about TRT when I started, but I didn’t start taking a hefty dose combined with another steroid before learning about what I was supposed to do.

Yes, many people do feel a crash from doing only one shot a week. Maybe you can help me figure this one out: Why does the Protocol Sticky recommend doing two shots a week? Is it because it’s fun to shove a needle in your body twice a week? Or, is it to avoid peaks and valleys that can happen in as little as half a week?

Most of us at one time or another change our protocol to something besides what our doctor recommended. We do it to match the Protocol outlined here, or by recommendations we get from the community. If you read through what I wrote, though, you’ll see that every time I changed something in my treatment regiment I got it approved by my doctor, who is an actual Endocrinologist.

“You think all of use [sic] are out to steal your ‘secret’ that you had to earn in blood by losing a nut.”

No, I don’t think I have a “secret”, and no I don’t care that I lost a nut. I don’t care if people use the system to get legal steroids. My beef is with people who call it TRT and go on TRT forums to get advice on non-TRT issues. Doing a 10 week cycle is not TRT. Just call it what it is, and don’t pretend otherwise.

“The problem is you clearing [sic] have no understanding in the arena you are debating and are just learning as you go.”

We all learn as we go. Could you please tell me what I’ve said to you that makes you think that I have no understanding of what I’m talking about?

“I was originally told I would be on 5000IU at .5ml, it was decided to go to 10000IU at .5ml.”

What does that even mean? Neither of those statements make sense. Is it 10kIU per .5ml? Because that is what you are saying. What I think you mean is that you have a vial that contains a total of 10k IU, you don’t know how many ml’s total, and that you take .5ml at a time. When you talk about things you need to put the strength, i.e. “1000iu/ml”. Saying how many IUs are in the vial doesn’t matter. You don’t say “I have a 1000mg vial of Testosterone Cypionate”, you say “I take 200mg, 100mg twice a week” or “200mg/ml of Test-C, .5ml twice a week”. See how one makes sense and the other doesn’t? See how this can lead people to think that you don’t understand what you are doing? Just saying “I take .5ml from a 10kIU vial” is absolute nonsense.

“I have a legitmate need for TRT and if I wanted to get on the juice it would be very easy to living in one of the major equestrian areas of the world.”

So, were you diagnosed with Primary or Secondary Hypogonadism? and why? If you only respond to one thing from this post, make it these two questions.

You may very well have a need for TRT, but you haven’t shown that this is the case, nor have you stated any interest in actually going on TRT. YOU ARE DOING A 10 WEEK CYCLE! And you are asking guys who are doing TRT for life how to handle the nuances of your non-TRT venture.

I’m only angry because you have no clue what you are doing and everyone who has asked you to elaborate on your “protocol” has been told that you don’t want to talk about it. You’re more interested in getting results in the gym than you are about figuring out your medical issues, and it’s insane that you would think that posting “Will Steroids Help Me Recover From Surgery” and “Will Binge Drinking on the Weekends Affect My Fat Loss” are appropriate topics for this sub-forum.

I wasn’t attacking you - I was pointing out the really stupid things you are doing. You are free to do whatever you want with your body, I don’t give a crap. I was just bringing to your attention the potentially destructive things you are doing.

It’s pointless to keep going back and forth - You obviously feel that you are doing everything right, and your crazy protocol isn’t open for discussion. I think what would be productive is if you answer the two questions above: “Were you diagnosed with Primary or Secondary Hypogonadism? and why?” If you want to add in one more question it would be, “Why did your doctor start you on 200mg a week of Test when this is your first time on TRT?”, but the former is the more important topic.

I am going to have to agree with ctastrophe’s criticism here, not to gang up on you alkemyst but because ct has many legitimate points. I had SLAP repair surgery in March 2012 (I’m 40) and have been humbled by the recovery process. My PT thinks I’m doing great, yet I always wish I was further along. Recovery from SLAP repair is by no means a race. Life is a marathon and I’d like to have one or two decades left of heavy lifting (if I’m fortunate) if I heal correctly and do not push things too early. It’s difficult having the patience, but I also know that I am not in a race against anyone else. The only one I have anything to prove anything to is myself, and I’ll do that by taking my time with recovery. My PT says I have “surgical tissue” at least until nine months and quite possibly twelve months. That means I take things easier than I’d like to in the gym right now. With that said, I am starting to enjoy lifting again even though I am at a significantly reduced level. I am approaching five months and am curling 25lb with my surgical arm where I will stay for probably another month.

Additionally, I started TRT in June and did a lot of research before I did. One of the things I discovered was that additional AAS (beyond TRT levels) were not going to help aid me in my recovery in any way. In fact, even TRT itself wasn’t going to significantly affect my recovery speed or quality. Even though Deca has the rep for being able to strengthen connective tissue (under normal training circumstances that is, not early post-surgical) it wasn’t going to help strengthen or speed the repair of either my surgical shoulder joint or of the insertion point of the long-head bicep tendon into my humerous.

I am definitely open to the idea of using AAS in my 40’s after a few more years of solid training, long after my surgery. I even have a cycle idea prepared, but questions surrounding my potential or real use of AAS don’t belong on the TRT forum. ctastrophe is correct when he advises you of this. Perhaps you left out significant portions of your labs on your other thread. Perhaps your doctor explained to you why he/she Rx’d the specific protocol/doses he/she did and you did not explain that on your other thread either. In absence of that information your protocol does suspiciously border on cycle territory. That is why I asked earlier in this thread. This is all info folks here can use to help tailor advise to your particular case. Without it, any answers you receive are pure conjecture and not based in evidence. Perhaps you are only looking for guesses.

Lastly, even though my PT gets instructions from my surgeon, I trust the specifics of what to do (exercises, home plan, etc) from my PT FAR MORE than any specific suggestion my surgeon might have. PT’s spend many years in school concentrating on recovery issues whereas the doctor knows very limited info in this arena, only generalities really. Tap into as much info as you possibly can from your PT and attend as many sessions as you possibly can. If you don’t like your PT then search for another one. Ask others locally for recommendations.

Good luck in your recovery and with TRT alkemyst.

I can understand how SLAP repair is difficult for many to recover from. I have never been one of those types. I recover very quickly and most surgeries don’t have a profound affect on me. I once had all four wisdom teeth removed at 7:30am, was at work around 9am and had a bit of lunch even (that was when I was in my prime in the gym as well so couldn’t miss a meal :)). I took no pain meds for that procedure as well, although again I was given a huge bottle of percocets. I have probably thrown away $2000 of street value drugs in my life :slight_smile:

There is no way 200mg Test 100mg Deca 1x week is anywhere near a true cycle. Again the Deca is going away and was prescribed because it can offer a lot of benefits and isn’t going to kill anyone on a simple 8 week dose. Deca is one of the cleanest steroids. Most of the anti-steroids after surgery dogma is it can give one a false sense that the wound has healed and promote one to push to hard too fast. In reality, after major traumas and surgery many times steroids are given because they do help recovery and healing.

However, this thread wasn’t for this. Like I have mentioned my background in college was based on becoming a Pharmacist. 7 years of chemistry, biology, etc and since I was in the gym and around guys using all sorts of 'roids, I was their go to guy for ‘what does this do really?’ when they got a box from the locals. There was no forums back then.

My recovery on this has been pretty amazing, 8 days out of my sling and cleared from PT after 15 visits. I went an extra 3 visits to indeed get some advice. I am really contradicted from nothing except no explosive movements/jerking and they want my reps high right now until my next evaluation on the 21st.

I am just looking for those that enjoy beer or alcohol on the weekend in this and any advice they can give to limits/etc. I am not looking for armchair doctor’s in this thread and especially those that are making posts trying to figure out their own junk.

You are being an armchair doctor yourself! The SLAP recovery isn’t about how strong you can get in the faster time: It’s about letting the anchors set! You had torn cartilage that was sutured back onto the bone! You now have two people telling you that you’re doing it wrong, but you seem to think that we just don’t understand your awesome healing abilities.

I was out of the sling and doing passive range 24 hours after the surgery. This was my doctor’s orders. I was in physical therapy on day 8, and doing strength exercises at the one-month mark. This is incredibly aggressive, but being that I’m in my 20s and in reasonably good shape I could handle it.

This isn’t some pissing contest: Two people see what you are doing to your shoulder and two people tell you that you need to change what you are doing because you are risking ruining everything your doctor operated on you for.

And what do you mean by “especially those that are making posts trying to figure out their own junk”? I have been on the same TRT protocol for 5 months now. It took me about 5 months to dial it in. I think I have my “junk” figured out. We all have ongoing issues and things we’re learning, so if you are excluding people who aren’t 100% healthy with nothing going on that they don’t understand then you are shutting out every human being on the planet from giving you advice.

But back to my points that you glossed over: Were you diagnosed with Primary or Secondary Hypogonadism? And, why? Why are you starting off on 200mg of Test and 100mg of Deca when you’ve never been on testosterone before? And if you aren’t going to be on this for life, why are you posting in the TRT forums and not the Steroid forums?

And what is the point of doing labs 8 weeks into a 10 week cycle when you even said this isn’t what you’re going to be on for life? You’ll have a TT score pushing 1500, and no LH or FSH; So then what? What do these labs tell you about getting on a solid TRT protocol? Your E2 may or may not be high depending on whether you’re dosing enough AI, and how many days after your once-a-week dosing you get the labs done.

But if your E2 is high, do you add more anastrozole, or do you just break up the dose like you probably should have in the first place? These labs will tell you so little about what or if you’d need TRT and what protocol to follow.

Back to my original questions, what was your diagnosis and why?

“Deca is one of the cleanest steroids.”

No idea what that’s supposed to mean. But I do know that designer steroids can do crazy shit to you if you’re one of the unlucky people. I’m not a fear-monger by any means, and I realize that it’s the few who actually have negative reactions to things. But here you are, having never done any form of test, and are taking a higher-than usual dose of Test-C combined with Deca.

You have no clue what 100mg of Test-C would do to you, but yet you jump right in to double the starting dose and add another steroid. Do you understand why this raises eyebrows? You don’t know what effects you’ll be getting from the Test and what you’ll be getting from the Deca. If you were going to do this, you should have started out on a normal TRT protocol, and then when you got your stuff dialed in, then by all means experiment. But doing it at the beginning is dangerous and isn’t going to tell you which direction you should go if/when you get on TRT.

Deca of all things, when you’ve never had any steroids before? I really hope you aren’t one of the unlucky ones who has a bad reaction to it (which can happen even at a dose of 100mg/wk). Have you ever heard of Deca dick? No, Deca won’t kill you, and no it probably won’t have any lingering effects from this dose. But that’s part of the point: Why add Deca when you can’t seriously train, and you don’t know how your body will react to taking Test-C?

I keep harping on you because you seem to have your priorities mixed up right now. I know you aren’t going to change your mind, but if I see a house on fire I feel obligated to help. Pushing things in the gym is going to be minimally rewarding, and running Deca will be hugely disappointing, since you’re limited on what you can do.

This is the time where you should be setting yourself up for future success, working the stabilizers and active range and flexibility so you don’t re-injure yourself! If your goals are fat loss and muscle gain then why are you taking in an extra 2400+ calories a week, with a substance that promotes carbs being stored as fat? If nothing else, work on getting lean until you have no restrictions in the gym. Take some time to figure out your testosterone issues.

At that point you could run Deca if you want, and it makes a hell of a lot more sense than running it when you have a 15+ rep max with light weights.

Do a little experiment: Go post your protocol over on the “Steroid” forum (or any bodybuilding/steroid forum) and see how hard people laugh at you when you tell them you’ve never run anything before, that you can’t lift hard, and that you don’t have a solid diet in place which is supplemented with binge drinking on the weekends. You might think I’m a dick, but the guys over there will eat you alive.

Alternatively, you could answer my questions “Were you diagnosed with Primary or Secondary Hypogonadism?” and “Why?”

[quote]ctastrophe wrote:
You are being an armchair doctor yourself! The SLAP recovery isn’t about how strong you can get in the faster time: It’s about letting the anchors set! You had torn cartilage that was sutured back onto the bone! You now have two people telling you that you’re doing it wrong, but you seem to think that we just don’t understand your awesome healing abilities. [/quote]

umm, my PT and Surgeon both disagree with you.

[quote]ctastrophe wrote:
I was out of the sling and doing passive range 24 hours after the surgery. This was my doctor’s orders. I was in physical therapy on day 8, and doing strength exercises at the one-month mark. This is incredibly aggressive, but being that I’m in my 20s and in reasonably good shape I could handle it.
[/quote]

That’s great. Get the chip off your shoulder.

[quote]ctastrophe wrote:
This isn’t some pissing contest: Two people see what you are doing to your shoulder and two people tell you that you need to change what you are doing because you are risking ruining everything your doctor operated on you for.
[/quote]

Neither have any insight to my condition / ROM / etc.

[quote]ctastrophe wrote:
And what do you mean by “especially those that are making posts trying to figure out their own junk”? I have been on the same TRT protocol for 5 months now. It took me about 5 months to dial it in. I think I have my “junk” figured out. We all have ongoing issues and things we’re learning, so if you are excluding people who aren’t 100% healthy with nothing going on that they don’t understand then you are shutting out every human being on the planet from giving you advice.[/quote]

You need to heed your own advice bro. You truly have no clue and IMHO should find a better doc.

[quote]ctastrophe wrote:
But back to my points that you glossed over: Were you diagnosed with Primary or Secondary Hypogonadism? And, why? Why are you starting off on 200mg of Test and 100mg of Deca when you’ve never been on testosterone before? And if you aren’t going to be on this for life, why are you posting in the TRT forums and not the Steroid forums?[/quote]

You are again clueless on what TRT/HRT encompasses. Your loss of your nut is a lot different than what men at 40 are dealing with.

[quote]ctastrophe wrote:
And what is the point of doing labs 8 weeks into a 10 week cycle when you even said this isn’t what you’re going to be on for life? You’ll have a TT score pushing 1500, and no LH or FSH; So then what? What do these labs tell you about getting on a solid TRT protocol? Your E2 may or may not be high depending on whether you’re dosing enough AI, and how many days after your once-a-week dosing you get the labs done. [/quote]

Because I can afford to do so. I will get another baseline in 8 weeks and see where I am at.

Again you need to step down and deal with your own drama bro.

[quote]ctastrophe wrote:
But if your E2 is high, do you add more anastrozole, or do you just break up the dose like you probably should have in the first place? These labs will tell you so little about what or if you’d need TRT and what protocol to follow.[/quote]

now you are acting like the typical sophmore.

[quote]ctastrophe wrote:
Back to my original questions, what was your diagnosis and why?
[/quote]

My Testosterone started falling in my 30’s, it’s below normal range now. Easy Peasy.

[quote]ctastrophe wrote:
“Deca is one of the cleanest steroids.”

No idea what that’s supposed to mean. But I do know that designer steroids can do crazy shit to you if you’re one of the unlucky people. I’m not a fear-monger by any means, and I realize that it’s the few who actually have negative reactions to things. But here you are, having never done any form of test, and are taking a higher-than usual dose of Test-C combined with Deca.[/quote]

That is clear, you have no freaking idea what you are really trying to talk about. You are simply mad others can be on your ‘therapy’ without losing a body part and that make you angry.

200mg of Test Cyp is not really abnormal bro.

[quote]ctastrophe wrote:
You have no clue what 100mg of Test-C would do to you, but yet you jump right in to double the starting dose and add another steroid. Do you understand why this raises eyebrows? You don’t know what effects you’ll be getting from the Test and what you’ll be getting from the Deca. If you were going to do this, you should have started out on a normal TRT protocol, and then when you got your stuff dialed in, then by all means experiment. But doing it at the beginning is dangerous and isn’t going to tell you which direction you should go if/when you get on TRT. [/quote]

I didn’t pick my dosages, a professional did. Again, you are really angry here.

[quote]ctastrophe wrote:
Deca of all things, when you’ve never had any steroids before? I really hope you aren’t one of the unlucky ones who has a bad reaction to it (which can happen even at a dose of 100mg/wk). Have you ever heard of Deca dick? No, Deca won’t kill you, and no it probably won’t have any lingering effects from this dose. But that’s part of the point: Why add Deca when you can’t seriously train, and you don’t know how your body will react to taking Test-C? [/quote]

lol @ deca dick at 100mg/week.

[quote]ctastrophe wrote:
I keep harping on you because you seem to have your priorities mixed up right now. I know you aren’t going to change your mind, but if I see a house on fire I feel obligated to help. Pushing things in the gym is going to be minimally rewarding, and running Deca will be hugely disappointing, since you’re limited on what you can do. [/quote]

Seriously bro, you’d be the dude youtubeing the drama on your phone and standing back. I am getting good gains in the gym already. Again I see my surgeon on the 21st…he will definitely advise me further.

[quote]ctastrophe wrote:
This is the time where you should be setting yourself up for future success, working the stabilizers and active range and flexibility so you don’t re-injure yourself! If your goals are fat loss and muscle gain then why are you taking in an extra 2400+ calories a week, with a substance that promotes carbs being stored as fat? If nothing else, work on getting lean until you have no restrictions in the gym. Take some time to figure out your testosterone issues. [/quote]

Really? So working on a Bosu platform is something I wasn’t doing? I am in this for the long haul…I once lost 86lbs in 90 days. I see enjoyed my beer on the weekend. I also trade my carbs for the beer carbs and drinking Mich Ultra that is 95 cals a beer, so not 2400+. Add that into my 1000 calorie diet right now and I will still be losing weight. Again these are all things you are clueless on. I am an oldy in this.

When I get the green light to go heavy, I really can’t get enough calories.

[quote]ctastrophe wrote:
At that point you could run Deca if you want, and it makes a hell of a lot more sense than running it when you have a 15+ rep max with light weights.[/quote]

The Deca is for recovery not gains right now bro.

[quote]ctastrophe wrote:
Do a little experiment: Go post your protocol over on the “Steroid” forum (or any bodybuilding/steroid forum) and see how hard people laugh at you when you tell them you’ve never run anything before, that you can’t lift hard, and that you don’t have a solid diet in place which is supplemented with binge drinking on the weekends. You might think I’m a dick, but the guys over there will eat you alive.[/quote]

Again bro, I am not on 'roids for gains…I am on TRT to feel better.

[quote]ctastrophe wrote:
Alternatively, you could answer my questions “Were you diagnosed with Primary or Secondary Hypogonadism?” and “Why?”
[/quote]

Your issues are not mine. Men’s testosterone naturally tapers off…we have meds that can reverse that.

This tread is about enjoying alcohol, not your insane attacks.

"I will get another baseline in 8 weeks and see where I am at. "

How can you get a baseline when you will be on a good amount of anabolics? What kind of baseline is this? Base-line is done BEFORE you start something, not in the middle of it.

“You truly have no clue and IMHO should find a better doc.”

It’s hard to tell from context which one of my doctors you’re talking about.

Funny enough, my orthopedic doctor is competent enough to be employed by the SF Giants. Though I guess the fact that he’s the team physician for a professional baseball team that isn’t the best in the league is a stain on his record. (Although he was on staff in 2010 when they took the series, so who knows?).

If you’re suggesting I need a new Endo, please explain why. It’s normal for it to take months to let your hormones level out and adjust doses of T and AI. My doctor wasn’t negligent, and didn’t just throw a 200mg dose at me without starting lower and adjusting based on labs. My doctor also ordered baseline tests to be done BEFORE starting treatment, as well as along the way so we knew where to tweak the dose. He also didn’t put me on a temporary cycle and call it TRT, ordering labs when it’s almost over even though it isn’t the therapy which I will be on for life.

"That is clear, you have no freaking idea what you are really trying to talk about. You are simply mad others can be on your ‘therapy’ without losing a body part and that make you angry. "

I don’t give a fuck who takes what steroids or why. You aren’t on my therapy either, you are on a ten week cycle when you have never been on any anabolics before and you sometimes claim it’s TRT and sometimes it’s not. What makes me mad is that myself and other people have raised valid questions about your therapy and you see this as an attack on you.

“drinking Mich Ultra that is 95 cals a beer, so not 2400+”

Good call. Because the case of beer you drink every weekend only contains one beer in it.

"The Deca is for recovery not gains right now bro. "

Tell me, what is Deca doing to help you recover? Why was it prescribed? What mode of action does it have in your body that will aide in your shoulder recovery?

“This tread is about enjoying alcohol, not your insane attacks.”

First off, I’m not attacking you, which you don’t seem to realize. I’m “attacking” the stupid things you are doing. That aside, if you want to talk about how binge drinking will affect your fat losses, why would you post this in the “T-Replacement” Forum? If you want a discussion on diet and alcohol consumption, I’d suggest posting in the “Nutrition” or “Bodybuilding” sections, and not the one for guys getting advise on how to deal with medical issues.

“Again bro, I am not on 'roids for gains…I am on TRT to feel better.”

TRT is for life. A ten week cycle is not TRT. This isn’t complicated. If you aren’t on TRT you shouldn’t be posting in the TRT section, you should be posting in the “Steroids” section, because what you are doing right now isn’t TRT, and you are looking to take steroids for reasons other than the correction of hypogonadism. Taking steroids for reasons other than hypogonadism is not TRT. This is why I’m giving you shit, because you don’t understand that, even if you have low T and are planning on being on an actual TRT protocol later, you aren’t on TRT now and therefore show how confused you are by posting in the TRT forum. I’ll repeat this for the 1000th time since you keep accusing me of the opposite: I don’t care why anyone takes testosterone for any reason. I do care when people don’t understand the difference between cycling steroids and TRT, especially when they are doing it wrong.

Your current regiment might work for you. The thing is, you jumped into a dose that’s twice the standard starting point and added another steroid to it, even though you didn’t establish what would happen from taking the testosterone alone. It’s irresponsible and is medically unsound. You had no idea what Test alone would do to you or your T levels, and yet felt it was a good idea to take twice the starting dose and adding Deca, in addition to incorrectly dosing your hCG and anastrozole.

“Men’s testosterone naturally tapers off…we have meds that can reverse that.”

No shit. So, again to my questions that you are STILL unable to answer: “Were you diagnosed with Primary or Secondary Hypogonadism? And, why?”

I don’t think you know the answer to this because I don’t think you have a diagnosis. You could prove me wrong by making your case, or at least showing that you understand the questions. And “My Testosterone started falling in my 30’s, it’s below normal range now. Easy Peasy” does not actually answer that question. The fact that you think that’s a coherent answer just furthers my suspicion that you don’t actually have a diagnosis. Having a low Total Testosterone number isn’t a diagnosis.

“You are again clueless on what TRT/HRT encompasses. Your loss of your nut is a lot different than what men at 40 are dealing with.”

Then why couldn’t you answer a single one of the questions I asked that you quoted?

You seem to be really fixated on my testicle. You seem to care more about it than I do, and seem to think I get insulted when you bring it up. I own the fact that I’m a uni-baller, and even gave myself the loving nick-name “half-sack” with my friends. Think about and talk about my scrotum all you want; It doesn’t bother me.

That you think that the loss of my testicle factors into the diagnosis of hypogonadism shows how little you know about the subject. It wouldn’t matter if I had two testicles or five, the testing and diagnosis process would be exactly the same for me as it would for anyone else. Do you actually think I went into the doctor and said “I only have one testicle, can I get hormones please???” Or that my doctor said “Well, you only have one testicle now, so here’s some syringes”? Most guys who have an Orchiectomy don’t end up with low testosterone. I don’t get why you think my testicle count has anything to do with anything.

Feel free to keep trying to insult me though. If you feel like telling me your diagnosis and the reasons behind that diagnosis, it would be really productive.

For clarity, “Were you diagnosed with Primary or Secondary Hypogonadism? And, why?”