Weak Pull

[quote]Wrah wrote:
You don’t need to deadlift, but for crying out loud don’t disregard the posterior chain![/quote]

It’s my understanding that it’s not uncommon for elite level olympic lifters to be incredibly unbalanced with regard to their quad/hamstring strength (as much as a 4 to 1 ratio, if I recall) which isn’t to say that anybody should be disregarding their posterior chain. Just saying it’s maybe not worth the primary work if the sole goal is to improve as an o-lifter.

Paperclip, insofar as improving your pull, as others have mentioned, I would recommend . . . pulls. If doing them heavy starts to screw with your technique (your bottom rising too fast, as you mentioned) then maybe do them a little lighter. In my experience doing heavy pulls is helpful only as much as you can replicate a clean with the movement. If you’re unable to maintain position the movement loses it’s usefulness, in my opinion, which is why I wouldn’t necessarily recommend deadlifts.

As for some of my numbers (as you requested somewhere near the start of this thread) I’ve cleaned 166 (although I feel I’m good for more), and have clean pulled 170 for a triple and deadlifted 200, although I’d say neither was necessarily a max effort and the deadlift was probably a year and a half ago (haven’t really done it since). Although I’d say you shouldn’t worry too much about the ratios between your lifts (especially the deadlift). Perceived weaknesses should not be based on ratios but rather on where you are faltering when you do the snatch/clean and jerk, in my opinion.

[quote]fighterkhan wrote:
my best clean is 51% of my deadlift max…

best clean = 205 lb
best dl = 405 lb

also honorable mention
best sumo dl = 395 lb
best snatch = 185 lb

i want to lift more weight period…what should i do in order to make the best progress at doing that…

[/quote]

Squats and milk.

[quote]Paperclip wrote:

[quote]Koing wrote:
I would have told you to just try it out BUT you said DL wrecks your lower back so don’t do that if it’s bad!

Do pulls on 105% or 110% of your best Clean.

Koing[/quote]
That’s what I do.

[quote]Wrah wrote:
You don’t need to deadlift, but for crying out loud don’t disregard the posterior chain![/quote]
I sometimes do good morning or hyperextension.[/quote]

You get pulled out when the weight is 105% of your best Clean? Try 102-103%. Or just 100% for doubles or so. Build it up. What does your coach say?

I haven’t done pulls in years. I just hammer my FS up…

Koing

[quote]TheJonty wrote:

[quote]Wrah wrote:
You don’t need to deadlift, but for crying out loud don’t disregard the posterior chain![/quote]

It’s my understanding that it’s not uncommon for elite level olympic lifters to be incredibly unbalanced with regard to their quad/hamstring strength (as much as a 4 to 1 ratio, if I recall) which isn’t to say that anybody should be disregarding their posterior chain. Just saying it’s maybe not worth the primary work if the sole goal is to improve as an o-lifter.

Paperclip, insofar as improving your pull, as others have mentioned, I would recommend . . . pulls. If doing them heavy starts to screw with your technique (your bottom rising too fast, as you mentioned) then maybe do them a little lighter. In my experience doing heavy pulls is helpful only as much as you can replicate a clean with the movement. If you’re unable to maintain position the movement loses it’s usefulness, in my opinion, which is why I wouldn’t necessarily recommend deadlifts.

As for some of my numbers (as you requested somewhere near the start of this thread) I’ve cleaned 166 (although I feel I’m good for more), and have clean pulled 170 for a triple and deadlifted 200, although I’d say neither was necessarily a max effort and the deadlift was probably a year and a half ago (haven’t really done it since). Although I’d say you shouldn’t worry too much about the ratios between your lifts (especially the deadlift). Perceived weaknesses should not be based on ratios but rather on where you are faltering when you do the snatch/clean and jerk, in my opinion.[/quote]

Your ratios are pretty much identical to mine :stuck_out_tongue: apart from you Jerked the 166! mofo!

DL 200
Cn 167.5
Cn pull 170 for triples way way back, about 3 or 4yrs ago?

Koing

[quote]TheJonty wrote:
It’s my understanding that it’s not uncommon for elite level olympic lifters to be incredibly unbalanced with regard to their quad/hamstring strength (as much as a 4 to 1 ratio, if I recall) which isn’t to say that anybody should be disregarding their posterior chain. Just saying it’s maybe not worth the primary work if the sole goal is to improve as an o-lifter.
[/quote]

I really doubt it. From the two lifts the other is in essence a pulling movement, while the squat/recovery portion exists in the movement that portion of the lift is trivial*. Guess the lift. :wink:

I will not succumb to the thought that the snatch only tests “overall explosiveness” like the weightlifting public maybe would like me to believe. I’m not talking about you.

*Note: in the clean this is reversed althought people often relate pulling strength to the clean. Bad mistake.

[quote]Paperclip wrote:

[quote]ape288 wrote:

haha hell I have no idea. I used to do deadlifts all the time before I ever started doing cleans, it’s actually probably the lift I’m best at, so having a weak pull is not something I know much about lol. but I mean, it should become fairly obvious if you need to do some dedicated pulls. when pulling from the floor, if your back rounds over, your hips hike up, you get pulled forwards onto your toes, etc. basically if you just can’t hold the proper positions anymore on the first pull, I’d say do some work with heavy pulls once or twice a week to get it stronger so it no longer hinders the lift.[/quote]

That’s what I’m wondering about, should I do heavy pulls (basically deadlifts with shrugs) or should I not? Deadlifting wreaks my lower back and heavy pulling makes my bottom rise too fast, basically I don’t want to teach my body the wrong movement pattern.

But after comparing my pull:clean ratio to some lifters, e.g. Koing, I think for now it’s sufficient enough…[/quote]

In general (talking about Sweden now) people I see think that pulls need to be super heavy. Thing is, when they pull around that much weight, they lose all their positions. Their technique in the actual lift deteriorates, and the carryover is not what it could be.

Don’t be afraid to do pulls for reps around 85-100% of your clean. The added volume should definitely help.

I usually never worry about “strength” when coaching. I look at more specific stuff. While my lifters work on technique and timing, their power increase without them focusing on that.

I try to get my youngsters to get out of the bodybuilding mindset. :slight_smile: When they say something like “my hams are too weak” I urge them to say “my clean is too weak” and when they say that, I urge them to say “my clean is off”. :wink:

Basically, power (and weight progression) is a byproduct of the route to perfecting the lifts.

my best dl is 235kg and my best cln is 145kg. my coach has me do them fairly regularly for basic strength but i wouldn’t say it adds to much to my lifts itself. my fs going up is a lot more useful to my lift than the dl. i think as long as you squat your dl will be where it needs to be

[quote]Wrah wrote:
I really doubt it. From the two lifts the other is in essence a pulling movement, while the squat/recovery portion exists in the movement that portion of the lift is trivial*. Guess the lift. :wink:

I will not succumb to the thought that the snatch only tests “overall explosiveness” like the weightlifting public maybe would like me to believe. I’m not talking about you.

*Note: in the clean this is reversed althought people often relate pulling strength to the clean. Bad mistake.[/quote]

Meh, pretty sure I read it in an article somewhere. To be honest it could very well have been talking about a few specific weightlifters, but I can remember reading it and thinking that, at least in regards to, say, the purported Bulgarian system of training, it would make sense that if the only strength assistance exercise was front squats that would result in a strength imbalance. I could be wrong though, those guys also did pull an awful lot of weight off the floor by practicing snatch/clean and jerk all the time, and I’m likely too lazy to try to find the article again to back up my position.

“Overall explosiveness”? What the hell is that?

While I’m not sure I would totally agree with you that in the clean the pull is trivial and the squat/recovery is the limiting factor in all cases, personally I have missed more cleans because I racked it and couldn’t stand up than because I couldn’t rack it. Or maybe I just misread what you posted, I got shit to do and I’m trying to crank this out so I can go be productive in life.

I don’t know what my best deadlift is (guessing it’s close to my max back squat) but when I do them now I only do them to a weight I can maintain proper clean pull form for maybe 3-5 reps. I don’t go to max. My deadlifts have gotten stronger alongside my back squat without training them so I think working on your back squat might address some issues too.

I do them because my hips fly up and I want to train myself to keep them down more than I want to work on my pulling strength because I’m still aways away from a weight where strength is the issue.

It is good to get a new/ intermediate to do pulls if they are not progressing by hammering the FS up or are not lifting often enough to get the pull strong.

Koing