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We dont need protein for bodybuilding? How to beat this false stone-age statement?

Hey, T-men and T-Vixens, can anyone of you help me to beat this stupid, foolish and totally wrong statement that guys and girls in fitness and bodybuildyng (generally) don’t need protein supplementation or even solid food rich in protein, just carbs because that “carbs are the kings???” This is statement of the choach from my gym… You know, he is the guy which continuously repeat that there is no studys which state that protein is essential for muscle grow and for bodybuilding generally…
This coach have just academic degree (but no real knoledge) from University of Exercise Physiology in Croatia and most of the gym members believe him…, because of his academic degree and they don’t believe me… Can someone of you help me to win in debate (I just lose one today…) with this uninformed coach in front of all gym memebers? I need some good advice, some studys and little psychology on this subject because I want to help other people in the gym with my “litle” knowlwedge and to point out this coach that he do not know anything about protein and that he need to read some books and articles from T-mag. Any help from the T-men and T-Vixens would be greatly appreciated. Thanks…

I truly doubt that the guy you are talking about actually stated that there is absolutely no need for protein at all and that you should ONLY eat carbs. I am sure he was making a statement along the lines of not needing to supplement extra protein as a necessity. In that one point, I am in agreement. What do you think bodybuilders did before protein shakes? Protein is important, however not more important than carbs or fats. They all work together to help you grow. I made the most gains before I ever bought a protein supplement just by eating more food than my body used to run itself daily. There have been studies showing an increased need for protein in athletes than sedentary individuals, and anyone that has ever dieted down knows that protein has to be increased if you are planning on keeping the muscle mass that you presently have, however, to say that you must supplement extra protein outside of a well balanced diet to grow is a false statement. If it were true that you had to take protein supplements, every bodybuilder before 1975-1980 would have been small as hell. And please don’t blame it on steroids. Their diets were mostly made up of milk and beef which will pack mass on anyone’s frame if they are willing to lift hard. The problem is, today you have confusing mixed messages being sent out. I know some guys that are taking in more than 400gr of protein a day and they weigh less than 170lbs. That is ridiculous. Worse than that is the fact that they aren’t growing. The biggest determinant of whether you gain muscular weight is the amount of calories. Your macro-nutrient breakdown comes second.
Professor X

Draz, do you have a comment? :slight_smile:

I think the protein thing is overrated myself. My diet sucks, a lot of junk food, cookies, chips, pop, etc. I do drink a lot of milk and that probably accounts for 80% of my daily protein, by a lot I mean a little over half a gallon a day. I am 6-5, 267@11% bodyfat, caliper measured, but by looking most would guess lower than that. I consistently make good solid gains, not as fast as I’d like, but I have gained almost 30 pounds in the last 2 years, with no more than 2 cycles of about 12 weeks each of creatine. For me personally, diet is overrated.

Guys, let me tell you from experience…I think diet, protein, macro-pecentages, calories etc. may be overrated for SOME individuals, but for most people (look at the world-wide rates of obesity, as an example, especailly in the U.S.), this type of focus on diet is probably neccessary; I know it is for me. Most of my Posse that I work-out with have been friends since High School. Most of them ate like shit in High School, and still do. While I’m drinking a protein shake, watching my cals and working out hard and smart, these guys are eating chips, (two guys smoke), drinking beer and LOVE a pizza after we work-out. And this is no lie…I’m the one in the group that still struggles with fat gain and staying fit, while most of my Boys are as sleek as High School. I HAVE NO SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE, but I think that some people’s overall physiology leads them to a pre-disposition to strong, lean musculature while others lean toward fat deposition and fair to poor muscle anabolism. It’s the latter (at least I think) where being meticulous about protein intake, macro percentages, calories, etc. is almost essential.

This is a tough one. I have read about a study that indicated that the more protein taken in, the better the growth seen. However… I also know that the RDA for protein does consider athletes and even then gives a bit more. Myself… I just make my calories and protein are as high as possible without making myself sick or too fat.

First of all, Professor X, I think the original poster was talking about protein in general, not just protein powder, being needed for muscle gains. In that regard, I do think that protein is very important. For those of you who believe diet is over-rated, I say you must be young. In my younger days, I made great gains eating instant noodles and drinking all night. One time, I put a personal best after drinking a bottle of Wild Turkey the night before. Those days are long gone, and I’m only 31! Enjoy your invincible days while they last guys.

I’m sorry but protein and fat are more important than carbs. I don’t say carbs have no application, but I live without them right now and I feel great and am growing.

I think people really overlook genetics and how important they are to things like this. I am 30 and am still happy with my gains without having to watch my diet at all. I think I fall into the genetically lucky category though. I can gain or lose pretty easily.

In response to Andre, the fact still stands that I do make carbs the majority of my intake and have averaged about ten pounds a year of real muscle mass since I really got serious about bodybuilding. If they weren’t important, or were wrong in some way, I wouldn’t be growing like that. Your diet may work for you, but the fact that mine works for me means that to make a blanket statement saying “carbs are bad, only eat protein and fats” is a little far fetched. Mufasa made a great statement, some people do need to watch their intake very closely, and as such, may benefit from dropping carbs to extremely low levels, however, it would NOT have worked for me. That is why I would rather say, “Experiment while keeping in mind that trying to stay extremely lean, or trying to lose fat and gain at the exact same time, will slow if not completely hinder your gains.” Much of this has to do with genetics which is why I don’t really watch what I eat when I am working on size even though my choices for food are centered around milk, beef, eggs, and rice. This has worked for me and has worked for many people. I think there are many lifters today overly restricting themselves because of what they read in magazines or what they perceive professional bodybuilders to be. Magazines would have you believe that nearly everyone walking around is a hard gainer. I don’t believe that. I do believe that many people are afraid to eat, upset that they aren’t gaining weight, while being in fear that they will.
Professor X

Sasa, I don’t know what to say. That faculty is full of shit. I don’t know if they even do anything but sports themselves there. The english translation may sound cool, but its real name is “Faculty for physical culture”. I don’t know whether that coach took some time to educate himself further,because that faculty doesn’t, even remotely, provide enough knowledge for such a statement. I know a few guys who are studying there and their knowledge is very basic.

The Hyok is on the right track… I was talking about protein in general, not just protein powder, being needed for muscle gains and I support Hyok… Mufasa I also suppot your thoughts and thanks for reply…

For Sasa Aksentijevic… thanks on small reply and…. pozdrav susjede Sasa!!!, kao bodybuilding kod tebe ???

For Professor X… thanks for so long reply but I do not agree with you in everything you say… I said that this choach do not like protein in any forms… because he is ignorant, he do not know enything about protein and naturaly he is scared if he hear word protein…, he also think if he eat 5 egg whites or 2 chicken breast in one week in the year that he takes enough protein for bodybuilding… Is not that stupid, or what? He also calls old “Weight gainers” - combination of 15% of protein and 85% of maltodextrin, which he drinks 2 tmes in year, he call that shit PROTEINS, and he put the word in gym that all this supplement companys and powder forms of protein (he mean “Weight gainers” with ton of carbs and bit protein) are equal… I know that all macronutrients (fats, carbs and…) are important along with protein becasuse the protein (not only powder, but also solid food) are basic for building muscles. It’s that simple. So I am asking myself and YOU how to build muscles only with carbs and with out protein… you know I am not alchemic or on Zen diet, to convert carbs in protein with some magic or with good thoughts… On your statement… What do you think bodybuilders did before protein shakes? I also read that Larry Scott eatup 1kg of protein powder per day in his time and I also see how look like bodybuilders before 1975 … why some of us do not want to use benefits of today technology (which is not ideal, by the way, and right answer but… we can use this for our benefits and our health or just for our lifestile…). Do you think that bodybuilders in past would not take shakes and protein powders if they can??? And about today shakes with high biological value like along with some vitamins (C, E, folic acid and B12…) and with out saturated fats, I think that shakes are far better for bodybuilding and better for health, but we also need some solid food protein like cottage cheese, chicken breast, lean beef… and of course the most important is protein intakes which are very individual. Some may actually need more protein to gain, while others may not need as much. I also agree with you Profesor X that is stupit to use 400g/day of protein on 170 lbs, or less body mass, even if you taking GH, insulin and anabolics. That is ridiculous… So thanks again on you long info and some thoughts…

I have just remembered something… On Nasser El Sonbaty’s private site you can read that during the mass phase he is eating 100 g of protein because “he has such a metabolism that he doesn’t need more”… he admits eating 500 g during cutting phase though. :-)))))))) I always like to read about Coleman or Priest eating 300 g of chicken breasts and an apple a day in ther official interviews… and in fact they are eating close to 15.000 kCal per day including Twix and Mars Bars. :wink:

Audi TT, it’s surprising how small the world is. I hope you noticed that Draz is
from Croatia too - thanks to the T-mag staff for hooking us up. Well, the bodybuilding
is going for me just as it’s supposed to… you know, two steps forward, one step back.
What is important is consistency, diet, determination and heading for the right direction.
I see we’re starting a small but dedicated T-like community here in Croatia… maybe
we should do something in order to educated those lame-assed morons playing with 2.5 kg
dumbbells. :wink: Even the biggest badass bodybuilders I know are complete ignorants when it comes to nutrition and training, they stick to one method, they don’t do
experiments and they are very rigid in their regimen. Anyway, where are you from and better yet, where are you now? And yes, I am taking up to 1.5 g/lb protein, no matter what.
Being an ex fat-fuck and losing 155 lbs over a year or so I tried pretty much everything.
I tried sheep-style low protein low fat high carb low cal approach - it works great in
burning both muscle and fat, leaving you completely devastated with body temperature of
94,5 F and ultimately looking like a bag of sagging skin. I tried anabolic diet with
Sunday carb ups and cals at 12/lb. It works great for 5-6 weeks and then it stops doing
anything. I tried targeted ketogenic diets like T-Dawg diet: for me it changes body
composition for a while, packs on muscle and strength, drops bodyfat and then stops
working. What I found to be of the biggest benefit for me during cutting is the following
approach: 1.5 or more g/lb protein, 50 or so g fat, mostly PUFAs and up to 100 g carbs.
It works like a charm. I intend to use Massive Eating principles after my cutting phase.
I found out that isocaloric approach works great for me, even leaving an open possiblity
for cheat days at 10.000 kCal or more while maintaining the same weight. I have to keep
the carbs up to 300 g/day though. Therefore, I think that macronutrient ratio is crucial
for ex obese fucks and even for so called hardgainers. Metabolic monsters that can grow
at 2000 kCal containing donut and french fries calories or get lean at 3000 or 4000 kCal
are not a part of this equation. I am not one of those lucky bastards and I have to keep
a very strict diet log to achieve my goals and plan everything in advance. But, as the
time goes, bf% drops, lbm goes up along with the metabolic rate, and I am slowly starting
to become one of the lucky ones who can get away with cheat days and stuff. One year ago
when I was 150 lbs I’d gain fat at isocaloric 2400 kCal per day. Now I am 190 lbs and I
don’t gain fat at isocaloric 3200 kCal per day during the week and occasional binge non-controlled events during Sunday. :wink: Like I said, it’s consistency that’s important, not occasional¸overeating or undereating events - I guess from time to time they can be of benefit because they are a shock to the metabolism and keep the fucker from adaptation.

Hi, Sasa and Draz thanks on reply… How we can contact private…

I’m with Professor X on this one. Protein is important, but supplemental protein is simply for convenience and is not necessary. Protein is important for building muscle, but its importance is overrated by some of you guys. Your muscles are made up of about 70% water and are only about 20% protein. It would only take 13 g of protein a day to actually make a pound of muscle tissue in a week. As far as protein requirements for strength athletes, Dr. Peter Lemon (who John Berardi works under, I think) is a good source of info on this, and his recommendations based on research are 1.7-1.8 g/kg of bodyweight. That is per kg, not per pound. Building muscle does not require huge amounts of protein, but it does require huge amounts of calories, since is is an energy-requiring process. Some of you guys worry too much about your protein intake when you really should be worrying about whether your consuming enough calories to support anabolism.

Yngvai, I have to take issue with your assertion that adding an extra pound of muscle per week requires only 13 extra grams of protein per day, which would be 91 grams of protein per week.

That may be approximately the protein content of human skeletal muscle tissue (it is similar to many beef cuts anyway) but it is completely unreasonable to imagine 100% marginal feed efficiency. In other words, if 91 grams of new skeletal muscle protein is to be synthesized, do you really believe that only 91 grams extra needs to be eaten?

I assure you, that steroid users who make such an assumption and keep protein moderate exhibit obvious rate-limiting to their gains due to lower protein. I am convinced you need
at least twice as much added protein as you are saying for each pound of muscle to be gained. Do you have actual evidence to the contrary? Evidence showing 100% marginal feed efficiency, or indeed anything higher than 50%? If you do that would be very interesting and much appreciated. But if it is only a hypothesis then it shouldn’t be presented as fact.

The word “protein” is from the Greek word “protos” meaning “first”. In other words, number 1. How can anyone possibly say protein is not any more important than carbs or fats? Eat nothing but carbs and fat and see how good your workouts are and if you get any results. The very derivation of the word suggests it is of primary importance.