T Nation

Waxy Maize Thoughts


#1

doing a quick search using this websites engine didn't turn up much but then again it never does, what are the thoughts on the board of taking this during your workout?

I'm asking cause a guy from my gym (who is much bigger and stronger than me) suggested I take it during and after my workouts as the car ride home from my gym is 15-30 minutes depending on traffic, I usually dont have a shake at gym cause I struggle to digest protein powders properly so I usually have a meal when I geet home


#2

I would prefer to use dextrose because you dont get the benefits of insulin from using waxy maize


#3

I once tried switching my PWO from Surge Recovery to an “Optimum Whey + Waxy Maize Starch” shake, and saw no significant changes.

You should try Waxy Maize Starch pre/during-workout with some BCAA’s, and let us know how that goes.

Also, it would be great to see other people’s experience with this supplement.


#4

[quote]colinphenom wrote:
I would prefer to use dextrose because you dont get the benefits of insulin from using waxy maize[/quote]

Your physique is better than mine for now so I may be wrong here but Waxy maize hit’s the bloodstream faster than dextrose because of it’s higher molecular weight causing an insulin spike and not leaving you bloated with a bunch of dextrose sloshing around in your stomach.

I take WMS and am a fan. Use dex/malto from time to time as well though, more than one thing can get the job done.


#5

Go look at the thread in the T-Cell about Nate Green’s supplement strategy. There is an in depth discussion about waxy maize in that thread.


#6

[quote]LilDaDDyDreW wrote:
colinphenom wrote:
I would prefer to use dextrose because you dont get the benefits of insulin from using waxy maize

Your physique is better than mine for now so I may be wrong here but Waxy maize hit’s the bloodstream faster than dextrose because of it’s higher molecular weight causing an insulin spike and not leaving you bloated with a bunch of dextrose sloshing around in your stomach.

I take WMS and am a fan. Use dex/malto from time to time as well though, more than one thing can get the job done.[/quote]

I was under the impression that despite the fact that it is absorbed faster it doesn’t cause a significant change in blood sugar levels (which would be the determining factor of insulin release?) which is where dextrose would come in handy. I thought I read something on this a while back, ill post back when i find it.


#7

The first study compared way maize to dextrose, slow starch, and a placebo (4). In contrast to common claims, following ingestion, both blood glucose and resulting insulin levels were similar between WMS and slow starch, and 3 times lower than plain dextrose.

Measured work output during cycling exercise was not different following either dextrose or WMS ingestion, which were similar to slow starch.
Blood Sugar And Insulin Were Similar To Slow Starch, But Much Lower Than Dextrose.

The next study examined 24-hour glycogen resynthesis using WMS, maltodextrin, dextrose, or slow starch (6). WMS-induced glycogen storage and subsequent work performance were not different from that of dextrose or maltodextrin consumption.

It wasn’t all bad news however, as these three carbohydrates yielded improved performance over slow starch.
24-Hour Glycogen Resynthesis Was Not Different From Dextrose Or Maltodextrin.
Sources posted at the bottom of the article too


#8

“Maize… you call it corn…” -lol

S


#9

[quote]colinphenom wrote:
The first study compared way maize to dextrose, slow starch, and a placebo (4). In contrast to common claims, following ingestion, both blood glucose and resulting insulin levels were similar between WMS and slow starch, and 3 times lower than plain dextrose.

Measured work output during cycling exercise was not different following either dextrose or WMS ingestion, which were similar to slow starch.
Blood Sugar And Insulin Were Similar To Slow Starch, But Much Lower Than Dextrose.

The next study examined 24-hour glycogen resynthesis using WMS, maltodextrin, dextrose, or slow starch (6). WMS-induced glycogen storage and subsequent work performance were not different from that of dextrose or maltodextrin consumption.

It wasn’t all bad news however, as these three carbohydrates yielded improved performance over slow starch.
24-Hour Glycogen Resynthesis Was Not Different From Dextrose Or Maltodextrin.
Sources posted at the bottom of the article too
bodybuilding.com/fun/waxy_maize_starch_myth.htm[/quote]

" The evaluations contained in this publication
were prepared by the Joint FAO/WHO Expert
Committee on Food Additives which met in Geneva,
25 June - 4 July 19731

World Health Organization
Geneva
1974

1 Seventeenth Report of the Joint FAO/WHO Expert Committee on
Food Additives, Wld Hlth Org. techn. Rep. Ser., 1974, No. 539;
FAO Nutrition Meetings Report Series, 1974, No. 53.

AMYLOSE AND AMYLOPECTIN

Explanation

Normal native starches consist of a mixture of 15-30% amylose and
70-85% amylopectin. Amylose structurally is a linear polymer of
anhydroglucose units, of molecular weight approximately between 40 000
and 340 000, the chains containing 250 to 2000 anhydroglucose units.
Amylopectin is considered to be composed of anhydroglucose chains with
many branch points; the molecular weight may reach as high as
80 000 000.

One hundred per cent. amylopectin or “waxy” starches are
commercially available having been extracted from special mutants of
the parent plant e.g. waxy corn or waxy rice."

Now, it’s the molecular weight of Waxy Maize that is the reason it’s so highly talked about. It’s this molecular weight which creates high osmolality, and it’s the high osmolality which increases the rate at which the substance passes through the GI tract and into the blood stream.

No, WMS will not produce a huge insulin spike, in fact the insulin spike won’t be any higher (if even as high) than dextrose. But it will get into the blood stream much faster and start to replenish glycogen in the muscles faster than dextrose.

If you were to measure the total net effect after an hour or so you probably wouldn’t notice any difference in the amount of glycogen that had been replenished (which is what happened with several of those studies that that article cited). But if you were to say measure the difference after 10 minutes, you’d likely notice a difference.

So, it’s basically a low glycemic index carb that is taken up into the blood stream extremely quickly.

Speaking of Justin Harris, here is his response from a thread over at MD concerning WMS:

"The correlation between the two is simple deductive reasoning. All of science is based around similar mechanisms on some level.

The performance enhancing effects of a high molecular weight carbohydrate are a result of the low osmolality that high molecular weight creates.

Vitargo is not the same as waxy maize. They have different names, different manufacturers, different texture, different shipping methods, different handlers, different proponents of their efficacies, etc., etc. You could drag the variances out forever.

The truth is, there are basic physiological, biological, and chemical laws that everything must follow.
A high molecular weight carbohydrate in aqueous solution will create a low-osmolality. A solution with low osmolality in relation to blood will be hypotonic. The hypotonic nature of the solution creates the beneficial effects of rapid gastric clearance and absorption into the blood stream.

If Vitargo, waxy maize, a HMW potato starch, a HMW oat starch, etc., are all of sufficiently high molecular weight, they will all produce similar results in the body.

This is all very simple. In layman’s terms…any carb that is high molecular weight will have similar benefits. That is to say, the benefits that result from a low osmolality will be similar.

Arguing that there are no scientific studies for a particular brand is absolutely redundant.

It is the same argument as claiming that osmosis won’t occur with Kosher salt in the same manner as it does with sodium ions.
It is also a similar argument as claiming that you won’t believe Kosher salt (or sea salt, table salt, etc) will diffuse through osmosis in a manner similar to sodium ions until you see a scientific study proving such.

Arguing this point shows a total lack of understanding in the field you’re arguing. Without the proper understanding of the mechanisms of action for the substance you’re arguing about, your concerns become moot. A simple understanding of the correlation between the osmolality of a high molecular weight carbohydrate and the osmolality of blood is sufficient to answer the base of your argument.

I couldn’t give a shit if you like waxy maize or not. I don’t make a profit on its sales, I don’t produce it in any manner. My argument for its efficacy is based on clear and defined facts under that presumed situation that WM is a HMW carb.
There is nothing to argue on my stance. My argument is based on the same set of ideals that “proves” 2+2=4. You can feel free to require a scientific study to prove that 2+2=4, but leave my name out of it."

And here is another explanation by him of how it works:

""You have to be careful with wording.
100g of glucose based carbs are going to cause similar insulin production.

Dextrose is single molecules of glucose. WHEN they reach the small intestine, they are taken into the bloodstream rapidly, causing a spike in insulin.

WM is a complex structure of glucose molecules. It is set up like a big “tree,” with plenty of potential points to “cleave” glucose from the parent structure.
WM will not shuttle glucose in one big flash to the bloodstream like dextrose.
This isn’t how it is effective.

WM will bring the glucose to the bloodstream while dextrose is still sitting in the stomach. Because of its structure, it will shuttle glucose to the bloodstream over a more spread-out period than WM.
But, waxy maize has the advantage of STARTING this process earlier.

What you end up with is less of an insulin spike (although total insulin production will be pretty similar for 100g of WM as 100g of Dextrose).

The Dextrose won’t begin this spike until WM has already been shuttling glucose to the bloodstream for some time.

For a simple analogy, picture this:

Two hills are set up.
One hill is called “Dextrose.”
The other hill is called “WM.”

They each have 100 “carb balls” to roll down the hill.

WM starts rolling the balls down the hill almost immediately, but rolls them down 2-5 at a time, one group right after the other.

Dextrose hill has to wait 20min before it can even start rolling the balls, but when it does, it rolls them all at once.

The bottom of the hill is where the insulin release comes from.
There are people on each side that are starving to death. They’re going to get the balls and eat them to stay alive.

WM hill will see balls coming down 2-5 at at time, so it sends out a few groups of people (insulin) in a steady flow to take the balls off the landing zone. Since the balls start reaching the bottom sooner, many people are able to stay alive.

Dextrose hill has to send out a huge group of people to clean up the balls because they all land at the bottom at about the same time.
The only problem is, many of them have already died of starvation by that point.

Not sure if that makes sense, but it can help clear up how things work."


#10

thank you for that, no matter how often it is discussed some people refuse to get it.


#11

Use this;

LR