Waterbury's Set/Rep Question

[pikehunter]

[quote]forbes wrote:
pikehunter wrote:
Trenchant wrote:
Might want to check out the alpha roundtable on back training.

I find that doing one back workout based on deads and another based on rows has worked tremendously. It lets my lower back rest (I find I can hit it at most 1x a week hard) but provides the volume necessary to grow.

For instance, yesterday, I did deads, close grip pullups, shrugs, and cable pullovers (with biceps) and on Tuesday (after legs and again with bi’s) I did chest supported rows, DB rows, and wide grip pull ups. It’s higher volume, but it seems to work for me.

And pikehunter, I used to think I was an ecto/meso. I think think I am. Use this as an advantage to eat. So people don’t go asking me what experience I have with this, I’ve gained 53lbs (to 193) in the last two years (haven’t grown vertically) while keeping abs the whole time. Don’t use that as an excuse. Use it as a means by which to bulk with only a little fat gain.

Thanks. No, I have no “abs” worries. I love to eat and I share your feeling that our metabolisms allow heavy eating. I do respect Waterbury’s opinions though and I just wanted to know if the “36-50 reps per bodypart/workout” meant IN TOTAL (i.e. TOTAL BACK). No big deal. Just curious as to what he meant.

Ahhhh, see! I was reading this thread, and I was confused as to what you were asking!

Yes, he means 36-50 TOTAL (total back). But, if you were to do back (or some sort of pulling movement 3 times per week) then you could effectively work all or most aspects of your back within your workout week.[/quote]

So, for instance: Monday-chins 36-50 reps, Wed-seated row 36-50, Friday… etc.? Or is it better to divide it up EACH DAY (i.e. 36-50/3 exercises= 12-16 reps PER exercise)?

[thorax]

[quote]pikehunter wrote:

So, for instance: Monday-chins 36-50 reps, Wed-seated row 36-50, Friday… etc.? Or is it better to divide it up EACH DAY (i.e. 36-50/3 exercises= 12-16 reps PER exercise)?
[/quote]

My 2 cents: It depends how well you recover. If you can’t add more weight on each of those sessions, you can be doing things too often. Two sessions a week are fine. I personally train my back every 5-6 days and I recover just fine.

I would go with DB row on Monday and chin-ups on Friday with the volume of 30 reps on each workout.

[Brook1]

[quote]adam_medic wrote:
pikehunter, stop using all the excuses not to train like the big guys. Gear, i’m an ecto, genetics (not mentioned but next). Big guys are big because they know how to eat and they know how to train. Take some of that and implement it. An article cannot teach you how to train, feeling it and the experience of being shown by a veteran can and will.[/quote]

The statement that all big guys are big because they know what they are doing is utter fantasy.
I have met many many large, stocky and strong guys who knew SFA about nutrition or what works for them - they just ‘were’.

However i do agree that the OP’s excuse that they are ‘all on gear and train for hours’ (which i happen to know is highly unlikely, in part due to personal experience and in part due to the fact that some of the largest competitive bodybuilders i have known personally [not just ‘seen’ in the same gym], trained under the iron for just 40-50mins) is nothing but an excuse.

Training with someone who works harder than you for longer and with heavier weights is a sure fire way to spark progress in the gym.
Not necessarily because they know how YOU should train (a massive misconception on this site is that if one knows how to train themselves they automatically become master trainers too! This is clear in the ‘ask the big guy’ quote) but simply by way of overloading - of the the mian basic principles of bodybuilding/resistance training.

JJ

[forbes]

[quote]pikehunter wrote:
forbes wrote:
pikehunter wrote:
Trenchant wrote:
Might want to check out the alpha roundtable on back training.

I find that doing one back workout based on deads and another based on rows has worked tremendously. It lets my lower back rest (I find I can hit it at most 1x a week hard) but provides the volume necessary to grow.

For instance, yesterday, I did deads, close grip pullups, shrugs, and cable pullovers (with biceps) and on Tuesday (after legs and again with bi’s) I did chest supported rows, DB rows, and wide grip pull ups. It’s higher volume, but it seems to work for me.

And pikehunter, I used to think I was an ecto/meso. I think think I am. Use this as an advantage to eat. So people don’t go asking me what experience I have with this, I’ve gained 53lbs (to 193) in the last two years (haven’t grown vertically) while keeping abs the whole time. Don’t use that as an excuse. Use it as a means by which to bulk with only a little fat gain.

Thanks. No, I have no “abs” worries. I love to eat and I share your feeling that our metabolisms allow heavy eating. I do respect Waterbury’s opinions though and I just wanted to know if the “36-50 reps per bodypart/workout” meant IN TOTAL (i.e. TOTAL BACK). No big deal. Just curious as to what he meant.

Ahhhh, see! I was reading this thread, and I was confused as to what you were asking!

Yes, he means 36-50 TOTAL (total back). But, if you were to do back (or some sort of pulling movement 3 times per week) then you could effectively work all or most aspects of your back within your workout week.

So, for instance: Monday-chins 36-50 reps, Wed-seated row 36-50, Friday… etc.? Or is it better to divide it up EACH DAY (i.e. 36-50/3 exercises= 12-16 reps PER exercise)?
[/quote]

You know, I never really thought of it!~ I’m sure you’d be ok as long as you stayed within that total number of reps. However, I think he wants you to milk an exercise for all its worth, so I’d just stick with one and do different variations through out the week.

What Thorax said though is also right. There is such a thing as training too often (or too infrequently). If you’re having a hard time adding weight to the bar, perhaps you’re training too frequently for your recovery capabilities. But, I’m sure you knew that by now

I personally prefer more frequent training, using a split similar to the one used in OTS BBB. Training a muscle twice a week is the MINIMUM (for me…I can’t stress that enough).

[pikehunter]

[quote]forbes wrote:
pikehunter wrote:
forbes wrote:
pikehunter wrote:
Trenchant wrote:
Might want to check out the alpha roundtable on back training.

I find that doing one back workout based on deads and another based on rows has worked tremendously. It lets my lower back rest (I find I can hit it at most 1x a week hard) but provides the volume necessary to grow.

For instance, yesterday, I did deads, close grip pullups, shrugs, and cable pullovers (with biceps) and on Tuesday (after legs and again with bi’s) I did chest supported rows, DB rows, and wide grip pull ups. It’s higher volume, but it seems to work for me.

And pikehunter, I used to think I was an ecto/meso. I think think I am. Use this as an advantage to eat. So people don’t go asking me what experience I have with this, I’ve gained 53lbs (to 193) in the last two years (haven’t grown vertically) while keeping abs the whole time. Don’t use that as an excuse. Use it as a means by which to bulk with only a little fat gain.

Thanks. No, I have no “abs” worries. I love to eat and I share your feeling that our metabolisms allow heavy eating. I do respect Waterbury’s opinions though and I just wanted to know if the “36-50 reps per bodypart/workout” meant IN TOTAL (i.e. TOTAL BACK). No big deal. Just curious as to what he meant.

Ahhhh, see! I was reading this thread, and I was confused as to what you were asking!

Yes, he means 36-50 TOTAL (total back). But, if you were to do back (or some sort of pulling movement 3 times per week) then you could effectively work all or most aspects of your back within your workout week.

So, for instance: Monday-chins 36-50 reps, Wed-seated row 36-50, Friday… etc.? Or is it better to divide it up EACH DAY (i.e. 36-50/3 exercises= 12-16 reps PER exercise)?

You know, I never really thought of it!~ I’m sure you’d be ok as long as you stayed within that total number of reps. However, I think he wants you to milk an exercise for all its worth, so I’d just stick with one and do different variations through out the week.

What Thorax said though is also right. There is such a thing as training too often (or too infrequently). If you’re having a hard time adding weight to the bar, perhaps you’re training too frequently for your recovery capabilities. But, I’m sure you knew that by now

I personally prefer more frequent training, using a split similar to the one used in OTS BBB. Training a muscle twice a week is the MINIMUM (for me…I can’t stress that enough).[/quote]

I guess the reason I ask is that if you view mid back (as an example) as 1 SEPERATE body part from say lats, then doing an exercise for mid back for the prescribed 36-50 reps ONCE per week really isn’t the frequency that Waterbury is suggesting is MINIMUM for hypertrophy. He recommends at least twice a week. This is where I am confused. It’s either that or train mid back, lats etc. 2-3 times per week EACH. Again, not a big deal. I just really like the article because it clarified goal specific rep/set volume (i.e. strength, hypertrophy etc.) and I just wish I knew what he meant. Tried PMing him. No response.

[thorax]

[quote]pikehunter wrote:

I guess the reason I ask is that if you view mid back (as an example) as 1 SEPERATE body part from say lats, then doing an exercise for mid back for the prescribed 36-50 reps ONCE per week really isn’t the frequency that Waterbury is suggesting is MINIMUM for hypertrophy. He recommends at least twice a week. This is where I am confused. It’s either that or train mid back, lats etc. 2-3 times per week EACH. Again, not a big deal. I just really like the article because it clarified goal specific rep/set volume (i.e. strength, hypertrophy etc.) and I just wish I knew what he meant. Tried PMing him. No response.[/quote]

I think you read too much into it. There IS a corelation in vertical & horizontal pull. After a heavy DB row session I have problems with a single pull-up… Also, I avoided pull-ups for a few weeks and went with rowing only - after switching back to pull-ups again I found I can do more of them… So those two movement overlap.

If you want frequency, you can always do them together in a session and do it twice a week.

[pikehunter]

Yup. Enough said. Thanks for the input guys.