Interesting article and discussion. Does the waiting 30-60min to consume your post-workout nutrition also include taking a no-cal BCAA supplement?
[quote]tolismann wrote:
Berardi commented on that article in his forum.
His reply was:
"The author is wrong about a lot of his physiological points.
But his practical strategies are fine for fat loss.
For example: the body IS NOT insulin resistant after exercise!
In fact MRI/MRS data suggest that the greatest period of glucose disposal in the muscle is immediately after exercise.
So much so that type II diabetics have normal glucose disposal for the brief post-exercise window.
Also: carb intake doesn’t shut down fat burning post-exercise.
Fat is preferentially burned for a short period after exercise even in the presence of high insulin and carbs.
For fat loss, the plan in the article could work… but only because it helps control calories and keep them lower… which leads to body fat losses."
PS: I deleted all the references to his forum and his coaching programs.[/quote]
A lot of times when referring to insulin resistance people think that it means impaired glucose uptake, which isn’t necessarily true. As I stated in my above post glucose transporters can be activated independently of insulin making insulin resistance a moot point (after exercise).
I would like to ask Berardi what he exactly means by the body is not insulin resistant after exercise. He refers to right after exercise where glucose disposal is greatly enhanced, but like I said this will happen independently of insulin.
So I guess what I really want to find out is if there is actually a decrease in insulin sensitivity due to decreased insulin receptor activity, but still enhanced glucose uptake via translocation of GLUT 4 to the cell membrane? Or, is he saying there is enhanced sensitivity in the actual insulin receptor via exercise too?
I think I remember him mentioning in one of his books that he still gains muscle, but at a rate of about 1 lb per month.
Also, I’ve read somewhere on the forum that CT also recommends waiting 30-60 mintues post work-out before drinking a post-workout drink when not on ANACONDA.
IF you really want to screw with EVERYTHING you thought you knew about nutrition timing then go over to Keifers site and start to get into that ! It will really blow your mind.
Depending on how you want to read, study and implement it, his studies seem sound as do some of his athletes results as well.
Just thought I would add a bit more fuel to the metobolic fire !
Guess what’s more important than all of this bullshit nutrient timing??? Overall macros/cals at the end of the fucking day, period.
Sure, there are certain times where you are more apt to uptake nutrients…I.E. after weight training etc…but, the effect is shown to last into the next day…not just some tiny 30 minute or 45 minute or even hour long post workout window.
There are times when I eat immediately after…times when I eat an hour after…times where it’s 30 mins etc, you get the idea. Point is…I hit my macros for the day…
This also translates to meals, the amount of meals and meal frequency…yes, I’m saying it would BASICALLY be the same to eat 3000kcal in one meal as it would be to spread it out the course of the day…I’ve done both and it just depends on how I feel that day. This shit is straight up minutia to me, and really just selling points for various supplement companies to push product. I don’t even adhere to fast absorbing vs slow absorbing proteins in the pwo window…sometimes I eat greek yogurt with casein protein mixed in…that’s pretty damn slow…sometimes I eat frosted flakes and pound a whey shake…that’s pretty fast…with carbs…doesn’t matter. What matters is my macros at the end of the damn day. Research shows this.
[quote]facko wrote:
Guess what’s more important than all of this bullshit nutrient timing??? Overall macros/cals at the end of the fucking day, period.
Sure, there are certain times where you are more apt to uptake nutrients…I.E. after weight training etc…but, the effect is shown to last into the next day…not just some tiny 30 minute or 45 minute or even hour long post workout window.
There are times when I eat immediately after…times when I eat an hour after…times where it’s 30 mins etc, you get the idea. Point is…I hit my macros for the day…
This also translates to meals, the amount of meals and meal frequency…yes, I’m saying it would BASICALLY be the same to eat 3000kcal in one meal as it would be to spread it out the course of the day…I’ve done both and it just depends on how I feel that day. This shit is straight up minutia to me, and really just selling points for various supplement companies to push product. I don’t even adhere to fast absorbing vs slow absorbing proteins in the pwo window…sometimes I eat greek yogurt with casein protein mixed in…that’s pretty damn slow…sometimes I eat frosted flakes and pound a whey shake…that’s pretty fast…with carbs…doesn’t matter. What matters is my macros at the end of the damn day. Research shows this.[/quote]
And you’re huge and jacked right?? Overall calories and macro breakdown are very important. But trying to diminish the importance of nutrient timing is foolish in my opinion. Anyone looking to gain large amounts of muscle legally would best be served trying to harness all variables.
I inadvertently did this for about 4 months. Trained and could not afford a post-workout shake, so I would just drive home and cook something cheap (eggs, potatoes and carrots). I ate about 45-60 mins after training. Muscles got bigger, waist got smaller.
[quote]tolismann wrote:
Berardi commented on that article in his forum.
His reply was:
For fat loss, the plan in the article could work… but only because it helps control calories and keep them lower… which leads to body fat losses."
[/quote]
See, here he makes an assumption that is not true. Calories are NOT lower on the diet. The carbs are eaten just not around training. They are consumed at night, before bed. Overall calories are the same as with any other diet, the difference being when to eat the carbs.
Quite frankly, for fat loss, consuming carbs around training never made any sense to me. Never worked really well for me either. You burn carbs during, I get that, but you also release fatty acids. Why do anything to mess with the burning of those fats? I get tremendous results from adding 30 min of cardio after training and after finishing that a small protein shake, another, larger one at 60 minutes and only an hour after that I have a meal with carbs.
For mass gains I have carbs with every meal.
[quote]schanz_05 wrote:
[quote]facko wrote:
Guess what’s more important than all of this bullshit nutrient timing??? Overall macros/cals at the end of the fucking day, period.
Sure, there are certain times where you are more apt to uptake nutrients…I.E. after weight training etc…but, the effect is shown to last into the next day…not just some tiny 30 minute or 45 minute or even hour long post workout window.
There are times when I eat immediately after…times when I eat an hour after…times where it’s 30 mins etc, you get the idea. Point is…I hit my macros for the day…
This also translates to meals, the amount of meals and meal frequency…yes, I’m saying it would BASICALLY be the same to eat 3000kcal in one meal as it would be to spread it out the course of the day…I’ve done both and it just depends on how I feel that day. This shit is straight up minutia to me, and really just selling points for various supplement companies to push product. I don’t even adhere to fast absorbing vs slow absorbing proteins in the pwo window…sometimes I eat greek yogurt with casein protein mixed in…that’s pretty damn slow…sometimes I eat frosted flakes and pound a whey shake…that’s pretty fast…with carbs…doesn’t matter. What matters is my macros at the end of the damn day. Research shows this.[/quote]
And you’re huge and jacked right?? Overall calories and macro breakdown are very important. But trying to diminish the importance of nutrient timing is foolish in my opinion. Anyone looking to gain large amounts of muscle legally would best be served trying to harness all variables.[/quote]
Really?? Your argument is whether I’m huge and jacked…, I’ve been lifting consistently for what 7 months…went from 135 to 160 and list body fat… Eating 2 meals a day and training fasted…
Some big guys give the worst fucking advice ever. To decide whether or not someone is scientifically knowledgable based upon their size is utterly ridiculous. I’m gonna have to assume you’re a bro scientist.
I tend to work out an hour to 90 minutes after waking, using Biotests Peri Workout stuff. Meaning liquid only calories consumed until about 4-5 hours after I wake up. Just thinking off the top of my head here, it seems to make a good balance of both ideas because you have the calories and macros coming in, BUT you also have an “empty” gut for 16 hours or so (meaning no FOOD to process until later in the day)
Getting shredded right now and its working like gang busters. Maybe I’ll try to combine a meal or 2 to make the “feeding” window a bit smaller later in the day. I’m slowly approaching something similar to the Pulse Feast idea that CT “stumbled” upon, seems to work well I’d say. Also something very similar to what Jamie Lewis over at Chaos and Pain is doing (Predator Diet, basically Protein Shakes every few hours until a big ass meat meal at the end of the day)
Keep the gut “empty” of actual food, but provide the body with nutrients in the form of liquid calories that do not require mechanical digestion, and then eat huge later in the day.
A: 10x3 is awesome - same number of reps as 3x10, but heavier!
B: Ever since Joe Weider, companies have been selling supplements for bodybuilding. If they can convince you to take their products before, during and after training, they will. Often, this is backed up by scientific and anecdotal articles published ON THEIR SITE. This is a clever and profitable business model.
C: Training theory and methods mirror fashion - people arent going to decide on one look and keep it forever, no matter how dapper. Every year there will be new theories, arguments and clothes.
Just to give some perspective.
Eating + Lifting heavy things = New Muscle. The rest is just details really.
There are success stories for basically EVERY style of lifting and eating. Just pick the one you enjoy the most and can stick with and go sick.
[quote]facko wrote:
Guess what’s more important than all of this bullshit nutrient timing??? Overall macros/cals at the end of the fucking day, period.
Sure, there are certain times where you are more apt to uptake nutrients…I.E. after weight training etc…but, the effect is shown to last into the next day…not just some tiny 30 minute or 45 minute or even hour long post workout window.
There are times when I eat immediately after…times when I eat an hour after…times where it’s 30 mins etc, you get the idea. Point is…I hit my macros for the day…
This also translates to meals, the amount of meals and meal frequency…yes, I’m saying it would BASICALLY be the same to eat 3000kcal in one meal as it would be to spread it out the course of the day…I’ve done both and it just depends on how I feel that day. This shit is straight up minutia to me, and really just selling points for various supplement companies to push product. I don’t even adhere to fast absorbing vs slow absorbing proteins in the pwo window…sometimes I eat greek yogurt with casein protein mixed in…that’s pretty damn slow…sometimes I eat frosted flakes and pound a whey shake…that’s pretty fast…with carbs…doesn’t matter. What matters is my macros at the end of the damn day. Research shows this.[/quote]
I almost entirely agree with what you are saying, but I think even you will attest to some dramatic changes utilizing nutritional timing. I know IF fits your personal eating habits, but don’t you also do it for the added benefits of insulin sensitivity, focus, ect?
I know, personally, in the last month, I’ve seen a HUGE change in body composition from adhering to CBL principles. By eating the same amount of food, same amount of macros, but simply moving 90% of my carbs to the evening PWO, and eating a lot of High GI carbs (tried low GI’s at first, for some reason didn’t work nearly as well) as opposed to other things PWO.
Do I think I’d make progress eating 6-meals a day, carbs every meal, consisting of brown rice and oats every time? Yeah, I could, but I know it wasn’t nearly as effective. At the end of the day, overall calories and macros are KING, but IMO, nutrient timing, is AT LEAST Prince, of Archbishop, or something. lol
I think everyone is just arguing over semantics in the end. Does anyone really think the difference in eating 30min PWO and 2 hours PWO going to KILL progress?
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
[quote]facko wrote:
Guess what’s more important than all of this bullshit nutrient timing??? Overall macros/cals at the end of the fucking day, period.
Sure, there are certain times where you are more apt to uptake nutrients…I.E. after weight training etc…but, the effect is shown to last into the next day…not just some tiny 30 minute or 45 minute or even hour long post workout window.
There are times when I eat immediately after…times when I eat an hour after…times where it’s 30 mins etc, you get the idea. Point is…I hit my macros for the day…
This also translates to meals, the amount of meals and meal frequency…yes, I’m saying it would BASICALLY be the same to eat 3000kcal in one meal as it would be to spread it out the course of the day…I’ve done both and it just depends on how I feel that day. This shit is straight up minutia to me, and really just selling points for various supplement companies to push product. I don’t even adhere to fast absorbing vs slow absorbing proteins in the pwo window…sometimes I eat greek yogurt with casein protein mixed in…that’s pretty damn slow…sometimes I eat frosted flakes and pound a whey shake…that’s pretty fast…with carbs…doesn’t matter. What matters is my macros at the end of the damn day. Research shows this.[/quote]
I almost entirely agree with what you are saying, but I think even you will attest to some dramatic changes utilizing nutritional timing. I know IF fits your personal eating habits, but don’t you also do it for the added benefits of insulin sensitivity, focus, ect?
I know, personally, in the last month, I’ve seen a HUGE change in body composition from adhering to CBL principles. By eating the same amount of food, same amount of macros, but simply moving 90% of my carbs to the evening PWO, and eating a lot of High GI carbs (tried low GI’s at first, for some reason didn’t work nearly as well) as opposed to other things PWO.
Do I think I’d make progress eating 6-meals a day, carbs every meal, consisting of brown rice and oats every time? Yeah, I could, but I know it wasn’t nearly as effective. At the end of the day, overall calories and macros are KING, but IMO, nutrient timing, is AT LEAST Prince, of Archbishop, or something. lol
I think everyone is just arguing over semantics in the end. Does anyone really think the difference in eating 30min PWO and 2 hours PWO going to KILL progress?[/quote]
Interesting! - so you’re saying CBL has produced better results that the typical 6-meal prot/carb eating schedule when bulking?
No strength loss, no excess fat gain & faster muscle gain?
Might give Kiefer’s book a try then, despite the hefty price of 80 bucks…
[quote]facko wrote:
[quote]schanz_05 wrote:
[quote]facko wrote:
Guess what’s more important than all of this bullshit nutrient timing??? Overall macros/cals at the end of the fucking day, period.
Sure, there are certain times where you are more apt to uptake nutrients…I.E. after weight training etc…but, the effect is shown to last into the next day…not just some tiny 30 minute or 45 minute or even hour long post workout window.
There are times when I eat immediately after…times when I eat an hour after…times where it’s 30 mins etc, you get the idea. Point is…I hit my macros for the day…
This also translates to meals, the amount of meals and meal frequency…yes, I’m saying it would BASICALLY be the same to eat 3000kcal in one meal as it would be to spread it out the course of the day…I’ve done both and it just depends on how I feel that day. This shit is straight up minutia to me, and really just selling points for various supplement companies to push product. I don’t even adhere to fast absorbing vs slow absorbing proteins in the pwo window…sometimes I eat greek yogurt with casein protein mixed in…that’s pretty damn slow…sometimes I eat frosted flakes and pound a whey shake…that’s pretty fast…with carbs…doesn’t matter. What matters is my macros at the end of the damn day. Research shows this.[/quote]
And you’re huge and jacked right?? Overall calories and macro breakdown are very important. But trying to diminish the importance of nutrient timing is foolish in my opinion. Anyone looking to gain large amounts of muscle legally would best be served trying to harness all variables.[/quote]
Really?? Your argument is whether I’m huge and jacked…, I’ve been lifting consistently for what 7 months…went from 135 to 160 and list body fat… Eating 2 meals a day and training fasted…
Some big guys give the worst fucking advice ever. To decide whether or not someone is scientifically knowledgable based upon their size is utterly ridiculous. I’m gonna have to assume you’re a bro scientist.[/quote]
You’re missing my point entirely. When someone is trying to put on large amounts of muscle, and it gets harder the longer you have been training and the more size you have put on. It IS important to pay attention nutrient timing. If you can’t acknowledge that there is science behind this, then uhhh read a little more I guess.
[quote]caveman101 wrote:
A: 10x3 is awesome - same number of reps as 3x10, but heavier!
B: Ever since Joe Weider, companies have been selling supplements for bodybuilding. If they can convince you to take their products before, during and after training, they will. Often, this is backed up by scientific and anecdotal articles published ON THEIR SITE. This is a clever and profitable business model.
C: Training theory and methods mirror fashion - people arent going to decide on one look and keep it forever, no matter how dapper. Every year there will be new theories, arguments and clothes.
Just to give some perspective.[/quote]
God, there is so much truth in this post.
[quote]N85 wrote:
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
[quote]facko wrote:
Guess what’s more important than all of this bullshit nutrient timing??? Overall macros/cals at the end of the fucking day, period.
Sure, there are certain times where you are more apt to uptake nutrients…I.E. after weight training etc…but, the effect is shown to last into the next day…not just some tiny 30 minute or 45 minute or even hour long post workout window.
There are times when I eat immediately after…times when I eat an hour after…times where it’s 30 mins etc, you get the idea. Point is…I hit my macros for the day…
This also translates to meals, the amount of meals and meal frequency…yes, I’m saying it would BASICALLY be the same to eat 3000kcal in one meal as it would be to spread it out the course of the day…I’ve done both and it just depends on how I feel that day. This shit is straight up minutia to me, and really just selling points for various supplement companies to push product. I don’t even adhere to fast absorbing vs slow absorbing proteins in the pwo window…sometimes I eat greek yogurt with casein protein mixed in…that’s pretty damn slow…sometimes I eat frosted flakes and pound a whey shake…that’s pretty fast…with carbs…doesn’t matter. What matters is my macros at the end of the damn day. Research shows this.[/quote]
I almost entirely agree with what you are saying, but I think even you will attest to some dramatic changes utilizing nutritional timing. I know IF fits your personal eating habits, but don’t you also do it for the added benefits of insulin sensitivity, focus, ect?
I know, personally, in the last month, I’ve seen a HUGE change in body composition from adhering to CBL principles. By eating the same amount of food, same amount of macros, but simply moving 90% of my carbs to the evening PWO, and eating a lot of High GI carbs (tried low GI’s at first, for some reason didn’t work nearly as well) as opposed to other things PWO.
Do I think I’d make progress eating 6-meals a day, carbs every meal, consisting of brown rice and oats every time? Yeah, I could, but I know it wasn’t nearly as effective. At the end of the day, overall calories and macros are KING, but IMO, nutrient timing, is AT LEAST Prince, of Archbishop, or something. lol
I think everyone is just arguing over semantics in the end. Does anyone really think the difference in eating 30min PWO and 2 hours PWO going to KILL progress?[/quote]
Interesting! - so you’re saying CBL has produced better results that the typical 6-meal prot/carb eating schedule when bulking?
No strength loss, no excess fat gain & faster muscle gain?
Might give Kiefer’s book a try then, despite the hefty price of 80 bucks…
[/quote]
I didn’t buy the book. Like is I said, I just adhere to the basic principles. But even that has made a drastic improvement, at least in my case. Someone else could try it, and they hate it. But yes, strength gains, while losing fat around my waist, and staying the same weight. Point it, once total calories and macros are in line, fooling around with other variables can really be of benefit IMO
[quote]Samir wrote:
I inadvertently did this for about 4 months. Trained and could not afford a post-workout shake, so I would just drive home and cook something cheap (eggs, potatoes and carrots). I ate about 45-60 mins after training. Muscles got bigger, waist got smaller. [/quote]
Now lets take your twin brother with the exact same stats as you consuming exactly what you ate 5 min. after every workout instead of 45-60 min. for 4 months and see what the outcome would have been. I’m guessing their wouldn’t be a noticeable difference in overall body ratios. Who knows! I enjoy these types of discussions because I have tried both ways while cutting and bulking and noticed absolutely no difference between eating immediately after, and waiting 45-60 min. before PWO meals. That doesn’t mean the next guy won’t have a completely different outcome though.
Another gem from Waterbury… lol
Thaaaaanks Chaaaaad!