T Nation

Waterboarding is Torture...Period


For all the "enhanced interrogation" folks. What a stain on our country:



If that article doesn't clarify the issue for the pro torture crowd,then they really are beyond help.

Excellent link.


So we are allowed to do it to members of our own armed forces but not to terrorists?


So we are allowed to do it to members of our own armed forces but not to terrorists?


Sure it is, but torture, I am afraid, is a necessary evil in some circumstances. It has been an effective practice at extracting information from unwilling informants since the beginning of man.

That being said, it should be used sparingly and on "high value" informants.


This should end the thread.


You know if someone were torturing me I'd say anything just to make them stop. I'd probably even lie.


Come on man, why do we have to trot this argument out every damn time? I am anti-torture and I'm anti-water boarding because I think it's torture, but to claim that torture doesn't work is naive at best. Of course you'd lie if you were tortured. Effective torture isn't done blindly. It has be used with a proper line of questioning. If you ask the right questions it HAS worked. This is documented fact, not theory. And I'm sick of the "we don't torture them so they won't torture us argument". They WILL torture us. That's why we train for it.



If the US trains for torture isn't possible that terrorists do to?


So we agree that what Bush has done is disgusting and mostly awful.



Waterboarding seemed to work well on this turd.
He sang like a canary

And if you think our enimies don't torture you either don't know history (ask J Mcain, Batahn death march) or are a fool.

These animals we are up against would slit your throat and never think twice about it.

Time to grow up folks this the real world with real bullets and real blood. The animals won't pass you by because you felt good about yourself and had a bumbper sticker.


The reason we shouldnt torture isnt because we fear them torturing our soldiers.

The reason we shouldnt torture is because its wrong.

"Enhanced interrogation" is an inefficient means of gaining intelligence. It produces bad intel. It's a political minefield. (please dont tell me politics arent important, because all war is politics)And its wrong.


What's your point? Besides, apparently KSM didn't train well enough for it if he did.



We're doing this to obtain information from/demean/humiliate our troops? (The issue), or we're doing this as a training procedure to voluntary soldiers?


Yup, simple answer. We're the good guys. The good guys don't torture. That said...

Why can't you admit that torture works? You can admit that torture works and still disagree with its use. Be bold and take a noble stance.



Unfortunately "information" doesn't mean accurate intel. If you want that try something other than torture.


It doesn't work, or it doesn't work well, no need to even get to the ethics.


So if you want to torture, stop calling yourself the "good guys". Sorry but it's true, to be truly moral we must abstain from torturing all but those who we can garuntee have good intelligence. Random Islamic people who have a connection to a terrorist organization, even low to mid level terrorists don't count.


Why, because it's not true?
Torture has been effective at extracting (usually false) confessions, not information, in fact that's specifically what our enemies have used it for.

Also just about everybody in a uniform disagrees with you.
for example:

"Some may argue that we would be more effective if we sanctioned torture or other expedient methods to obtain information from the enemy. They would be wrong. Beyond the basic fact that such actions are illegal, history shows that they also are frequently neither useful nor necessary. Certainly, extreme physical action can make someone �??talk�??; however, what the individual says may be of questionable value. In fact our experience in applying the interrogation standards laid out in the Army Field Manual (2-22.3) on Human Intelligence Collector Operations that was published last year shows that the techniques in the manual work effectively and humanely in eliciting information from detainees.

David H. Petraeus
General, United States Army

weird huh?
it's like the oppostite of what you said.
And when I said this before you'll remember you called me a liar.
Of course I realize this isn't fair because you don't what you're talking about.


Now I'm anti-torture. I'm also clear in believing that water boarding is torture, but you cheapen our argument when you claim it doesn't work. It is a proven documented historical fact. It's okay to admit it works. When you claim it doesn't work you come across as a fool and lose credibility in attacking it on moral grounds where it should be fought.