T Nation

Water Retention: Test E vs. T Cyp


#1

I've been on Test E 50mg twice a week for about a month. Also hcg 500iu twice a week and .25 adex daily. I'm seriously retaining water, which has never been an issue before I started TRT. I've seen a few posts about this and wondered if switching to T Cyp would solve this. So far I feel great but seriously bloated, have gained 15lbs in three weeks and I'd guess its mostly water.


#2

Get your E2 levels checked. You may need to adjust your adex. Water retention is usually more about estrogen than testosterone.


#3

[quote]happydog48 wrote:
Get your E2 levels checked. You may need to adjust your adex. Water retention is usually more about estrogen than testosterone.[/quote]

EXACTLY … I always get bloated when test rises, and E2 cathces up. Once I get the E2 down, the bloat goes away.
When I first started T-Cyp, I got so bloated, it was hard to make a fist.

Its not the test ester … its the estrogen.
Although .25mg daily of A-dex SHOULD be doing the trick, and then some with that low dose of test.


#4

Just noticed the 500 IU of HCG … that is probably giving you a good bump in E2.

I currently take 400IU E3D. A lot of guys here do 250IU EOD.

You may want to back down the HCG a little.


#5

I have noticed cycles of water retention myself and attribute it to rising and falling estrogen levels.

Though my last labs had E2 around 30.

A 2nd thought: I am taking 300mg of grape seed extract, no adex.


#6

Appreciate everyones thoughts. I will be getting new labs in a couple of weeks to see how things stand. E2 is probably the culprit. It was a sky high 65 on my initial labs, so I’m thinking maybe it will take some time for the adex to bring it down. Maybe too high on the hcg as well. Meanwhile I’ve upped my water intake to about a 1.5 gal a day, actually seems to be helping things a bit.


#7

[quote]gmankc wrote:
Appreciate everyones thoughts. I will be getting new labs in a couple of weeks to see how things stand. E2 is probably the culprit. It was a sky high 65 on my initial labs, so I’m thinking maybe it will take some time for the adex to bring it down. Maybe too high on the hcg as well. Meanwhile I’ve upped my water intake to about a 1.5 gal a day, actually seems to be helping things a bit.
[/quote]

65 on the E2 … enough said.
That will plump you right up.
It does take a little time for the E2 to come down, and the water to leave.


#8

Things are improving, but damned I haven’t been this bloated since spring break some twenty years ago! I take my hcg injection the day before the test injection. The day of the hcg shot things are good, then the next day after the test shot I become a human sponge. A roller coaster for sure.


#9

500iu hCG twice a week does not seem too high.

250iu EOD is 875iu/week.

The testes have aromatase, almost all tissue does to some degree. The big factor is that ITT [intratesticular testosterone] levels can be 80 time higher than serum. That is a lot of T for the aromatase to act on. Perhaps your testes are reacting to a higher degree to the hCG than usual.

When you take aromatase, the concentration in the tissues of the testes will not be higher than found in other parts of the body. Thus with high ITT levels, adex is not very effective in the tests as the ITT overwhelms the adex. Adex is a competitive drug.

For guys who have testes that strongly produce T when on hCG, the dose of adex required needs to reduce E production in general tissues by a further amount equal to the E production in the testes.

To achieve a certain serum level of E2, there will be some tissues that may have E2 levels that are too low. Some tissues create E for local needs and the increased adex load might be adverse in some tissues. This is all just my mind wandering and there may not be anything of this sort that has any consequence. Many things will never be known.

You really need new E2 lab work! You can always take an adex bump dose and try to read what is going on by how your mood and libido are react. The mood downside can be quite significant for some if E2 goes too low, probably in part from reduction if T–>E in the brain.

If your testes are larger/recovered and firm, you can try a smaller dose. If the hCG is the cause, injecting 250iu at a time EOD might be helpful. Certainly a low cost experiment.

For older guys who’s testes have limited hCG/LH response due to tissue aging or damage, hCH use will then generate less E. This means that results will vary.


#10

Great post KSman. I suspect that I am getting a big boost from the hcg. Within hours of the hcg injection I feel better than I’ve felt in years, then it tapers off until the next hcg injection. I doubled my adex dose to .50mg the past two days and well, lets just say I had a big surprise at 3am.

I still don’t have a handle on the water retention issue and I don’t have enough adex to keep up at this dose. My doctor wasn’t too interested in prescribing it in the first place, even with the high lab result.

I’m thinking that the doctor I’m working through is basically in it for the check, so I need to be educated about what I need after I get my labs next week.

The amount of research you’ve put into this is amazing and appreciated.


#11

[quote]gmankc wrote:
I’m thinking that the doctor I’m working through is basically in it for the check, so I need to be educated about what I need after I get my labs next week.
[/quote]

True dat.

In terms of helping you along in your education, you might be interested to learn that the chemical name of adex is anastrozole and that it can be legally purchased over the counter as a research chemical. Many of us do not rely on doctors for our aromatase inhibition meds.


#12

Just got my labs back after two months on HRT. Total test barely increased.

Total T 512 (512)
Free T 87 (70)
E2 24 (65)

At least the Adex is doing something. Now if I can just get me T numbers up. Haven’t heard back from the doctor but he said he will bump up the Test E from 100mg to 200mg a week, along with the adex and hcg.


#13

Lab numbers will vary by the day relative to time of injection. [Try to go blood work 1.2 way between injections.]

Are you doing adex EOD or?


#14

I’ve been taking the adex everyday at .25mg. From the way I’ve been feeling (pretty good!) I’d say I’ve hit my sweet spot with the adex. I was taking it in the morning, but after reading through the forums here I started taking it before bed. I notice some results from that the next morning!

My blood draw was in the afternoon, but it was two days after injections, so I figured I should be about at peak blood levels. The nurse really quizzed me about that subject and asked if I’d skipped an injection or two. Apparently they thought my numbers would be higher too.


#15

That is some GREAT info here …

I never knew about the HCG/ITT Test levels creating the E2 spike, overwhelming the A-dex in the nuts.

I just went through this problem.

I had changed my HCG from 250IU EOD to 400IU E3D and
my E2 went from 30 to 51 using 1.50 mg A-dex per week.

I am going to try 250IU E3D, and keep all else the same.

I really do not want to increase the A-dex anymore.

THANKS AGAIN Ksman for some excellent insight !

[quote]KSman wrote:
500iu hCG twice a week does not seem too high.

250iu EOD is 875iu/week.

The testes have aromatase, almost all tissue does to some degree. The big factor is that ITT [intratesticular testosterone] levels can be 80 time higher than serum. That is a lot of T for the aromatase to act on. Perhaps your testes are reacting to a higher degree to the hCG than usual.

When you take aromatase, the concentration in the tissues of the testes will not be higher than found in other parts of the body. Thus with high ITT levels, adex is not very effective in the tests as the ITT overwhelms the adex. Adex is a competitive drug.

For guys who have testes that strongly produce T when on hCG, the dose of adex required needs to reduce E production in general tissues by a further amount equal to the E production in the testes.

To achieve a certain serum level of E2, there will be some tissues that may have E2 levels that are too low. Some tissues create E for local needs and the increased adex load might be adverse in some tissues. This is all just my mind wandering and there may not be anything of this sort that has any consequence. Many things will never be known.

You really need new E2 lab work! You can always take an adex bump dose and try to read what is going on by how your mood and libido are react. The mood downside can be quite significant for some if E2 goes too low, probably in part from reduction if T–>E in the brain.

If your testes are larger/recovered and firm, you can try a smaller dose. If the hCG is the cause, injecting 250iu at a time EOD might be helpful. Certainly a low cost experiment.

For older guys who’s testes have limited hCG/LH response due to tissue aging or damage, hCH use will then generate less E. This means that results will vary.[/quote]