T Nation

Was the Cop Right?

The officer is wrong morally but probably ok by what they teach the police. We don’t know because we don’t know if this is a result of a car chase or some other issue. Regardless, police need to be trained better and differently. I’ve witnessed far too many people I knew that could not handle tough situations become cops and walk around with a gun 3 months later if not sooner. It’s not fair to expect that person to be able to handle tense situations

Agree with batman. If a suspect is brandishing a knife, the officer is authorized to use deadly force. I believe here and there are some stipulations… a knife is considered a deadly weapon within a 20 foot range, but not outside of it.

But that being said, I believe in this case it would have been better to shoot to disable, rather than kill.

[quote]LoRez wrote:
Agree with batman. If a suspect is brandishing a knife, the officer is authorized to use deadly force. I believe here and there are some stipulations… a knife is considered a deadly weapon within a 20 foot range, but not outside of it.

But that being said, I believe in this case it would have been better to shoot to disable, rather than kill.[/quote]

They are not trained to shoot to disable ever. If it comes down to having to use deadly force ie a gun, they will always shoot to kill.

[quote]Testy1 wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
Agree with batman. If a suspect is brandishing a knife, the officer is authorized to use deadly force. I believe here and there are some stipulations… a knife is considered a deadly weapon within a 20 foot range, but not outside of it.

But that being said, I believe in this case it would have been better to shoot to disable, rather than kill.[/quote]

They are not trained to shoot to disable ever. If it comes down to having to use deadly force ie a gun, they will always shoot to kill.[/quote]

Yeah, I know. He acted completely according to protocol. (Well assuming there was a knife and so on and so forth.)

I think if I were in his shoes I’d have attempted to disable first, and risk getting a suspension for violating procedure. But that’s me.

[quote]Testy1 wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
Agree with batman. If a suspect is brandishing a knife, the officer is authorized to use deadly force. I believe here and there are some stipulations… a knife is considered a deadly weapon within a 20 foot range, but not outside of it.

But that being said, I believe in this case it would have been better to shoot to disable, rather than kill.[/quote]

They are not trained to shoot to disable ever. If it comes down to having to use deadly force ie a gun, they will always shoot to kill.[/quote]

Actually they will shoot to hit and stop, i.e. centre mass. Death is unfortunately a likely consequence of this, but not the intended effect.

If the guy went for his knife when the cop told him to put his hands up then fuck him, he was basically asking to get shot. The only thing I’m uneasy about is the fact that I didn’t really see that guy brandishing a knife.

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]Testy1 wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
Agree with batman. If a suspect is brandishing a knife, the officer is authorized to use deadly force. I believe here and there are some stipulations… a knife is considered a deadly weapon within a 20 foot range, but not outside of it.

But that being said, I believe in this case it would have been better to shoot to disable, rather than kill.[/quote]

They are not trained to shoot to disable ever. If it comes down to having to use deadly force ie a gun, they will always shoot to kill.[/quote]

Actually they will shoot to hit and stop, i.e. centre mass. Death is unfortunately a likely consequence of this, but not the intended effect.[/quote]

I agree, you worded it much better.

[quote]Ct. Rockula wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]Ct. Rockula wrote:
Dude had a knife. Dont police have some hand to hand combat skills? Fuck
[/quote]

If the dude has a knife, it’s not hand to hand is it?[/quote]

Of course it is. If your skills are up to par (which as a cop i hope they are) they disarming a person with a knife shouldnt be hard at all.

Front stomp kick from a distance then a crashing technique…move to elbow or hroat strike…rear throw…armbreaker series.

Anything. Its a knife. You should know how to handle someone with a knife .

He couldve pepper spray the guy even without needing any h2h at all.
[/quote]
Exactly. He could have used iron shirt chi to make himself impregnable then countered with a Vulcan nerve pinch.

[quote]Testy1 wrote:

[quote]Ct. Rockula wrote:

[quote]Testy1 wrote:

[quote]Ct. Rockula wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]Ct. Rockula wrote:
Dude had a knife. Dont police have some hand to hand combat skills? Fuck
[/quote]

If the dude has a knife, it’s not hand to hand is it?[/quote]

Of course it is. If your skills are up to par (which as a cop i hope they are) they disarming a person with a knife shouldnt be hard at all.

Front stomp kick from a distance then a crashing technique…move to elbow or hroat strike…rear throw…armbreaker series.

Anything. Its a knife. You should know how to handle someone with a knife .

He couldve pepper spray the guy even without needing any h2h at all.
[/quote]

It is not a cops responsibility to take risks like you are describing.

With that said it looked like an execution. Dude should have known that as frantic as the cop was it wasn’t a good idea to be fumbling around though. You could tell the cop knew he made a serious mistake when he couldn’t find a knife. It’s pretty messed up that he was more concerned with covering his ass than assisting the guy he just gunned down.[/quote]

Soooo

A cop can only go from “hey stop” to putting holes in people?

No in between? [/quote]

No, I didn’t sat that. The cop was trigger happy but the other guy was a dumbass for fumbling around like he was trying to get a weapon out. He is a parole but doesn’t have enough street smarts to know that acting like you are pulling a weapon will get your ass shot? Sounds like he was destined for a short life.
[/quote]

Ok.

My issue is the fact that a gun is the first choice. Disturbing.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]illadelphia91 wrote:
THe officer also shouts drop the knife before shooting him.

Shooting tens shots was totally unnecessary though.[/quote]

They’re trained to fire multiple shots. It’s standard procedure.[/quote]

Oh, well then THAT makes it all right.

Pigs.

[quote]LoRez wrote:
Agree with batman. If a suspect is brandishing a knife, the officer is authorized to use deadly force. I believe here and there are some stipulations… a knife is considered a deadly weapon within a 20 foot range, but not outside of it.

But that being said, I believe in this case it would have been better to shoot to disable, rather than kill.[/quote]

A knife isnt a deadly weapon to a person with any type of fighting skill.

I can think of so many ways to avoid being stabbed or getting the weapon away from the situation completely.

[quote]Ct. Rockula wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
Agree with batman. If a suspect is brandishing a knife, the officer is authorized to use deadly force. I believe here and there are some stipulations… a knife is considered a deadly weapon within a 20 foot range, but not outside of it.

But that being said, I believe in this case it would have been better to shoot to disable, rather than kill.[/quote]

A knife isnt a deadly weapon to a person with any type of fighting skill.

I can think of so many ways to avoid being stabbed or getting the weapon away from the situation completely.
[/quote]

Living in Philly as an art student back in the 80s, a dude pulled a knife on me once. I was on a skateboard and he was pissing against a building and I yelled at him. He turned around and came at me with a knife. I jumped off the board, picked it up like a weapon, and yelled, “Come on, motherfucker!” He backed down.

Later that year, 5 young dudes threatened me with sharpened screwdrivers, in broad daylight. Once again, my skateboard came up as a weapon and all the fuckers backed down.

So it was either the board that they perceived as a viable weapon, or they weren’t sure what to make of an angry, raging, bonkers dwarf.

lol

[quote]Ct. Rockula wrote:
A knife isnt a deadly weapon to a person with any type of fighting skill.

I can think of so many ways to avoid being stabbed or getting the weapon away from the situation completely.[/quote]

Hmm… That goes against what I hear from people who’ve been in knife fights whether only one or both parties were armed with knives. The first rule of a knife fight is that regardless of if you win or lose, you’re going to get cut.

That being said, I don’t have any knife fighting skills. In all honesty if someone pulled a knife on me, I wouldn’t pull a knife on him. I would feel more confident fighting without a weapon than fighting with a weapon I don’t really know how to use.

[quote]Ct. Rockula wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
Agree with batman. If a suspect is brandishing a knife, the officer is authorized to use deadly force. I believe here and there are some stipulations… a knife is considered a deadly weapon within a 20 foot range, but not outside of it.

But that being said, I believe in this case it would have been better to shoot to disable, rather than kill.[/quote]

A knife isnt a deadly weapon to a person with any type of fighting skill.

I can think of so many ways to avoid being stabbed or getting the weapon away from the situation completely.
[/quote]

I agree with you completely, a knife isn’t a deadly weapon to a person with any type of fighting skill.

BUT, these guys aren’t trained in close quarters combat; they’re trained to operate radar equipment, shoot a gun, memorize city code, and generally act intimidating. Now, if it were SWAT vs a guy with a knife… actually, no, they’d still shoot him too. Maybe not to kill though.

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]Ct. Rockula wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
Agree with batman. If a suspect is brandishing a knife, the officer is authorized to use deadly force. I believe here and there are some stipulations… a knife is considered a deadly weapon within a 20 foot range, but not outside of it.

But that being said, I believe in this case it would have been better to shoot to disable, rather than kill.[/quote]

A knife isnt a deadly weapon to a person with any type of fighting skill.

I can think of so many ways to avoid being stabbed or getting the weapon away from the situation completely.
[/quote]

I agree with you completely, a knife isn’t a deadly weapon to a person with any type of fighting skill.

BUT, these guys aren’t trained in close quarters combat; they’re trained to operate radar equipment, shoot a gun, memorize city code, and generally act intimidating. Now, if it were SWAT vs a guy with a knife… actually, no, they’d still shoot him too. Maybe not to kill though.[/quote]

I get it. What i dont get is the"why" for not having hand to hand skills apart of training. It doesnt make any sense to me.

It seems like fighting should be a required course.

Bullshit.

I’ve been attacked with a knife while I was unarmed. I got cut. Didn’t wind up needing stitches but it hurt like hell and could easily have been a lot worse if I hadn’t spun and thrown him.

IF (big if) there’s a next time and I’m carrying a gun? You bet your ass I’m going to shoot someone with a knife rather than let them close on me. I don 't feel like risking my life to protect my attacker, thanks.

And you don’t fucking shoot to disable. Take a target the size of a fist. Set it moving on a drag line or something, moving unpredictably and erratically. Try to shoot it. Good fucking luck. You aim center of mass for a reason–it’s the biggest target. You don’t want to shoot someone else by accident or miss entirely.

[quote]Ct. Rockula wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]Ct. Rockula wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
Agree with batman. If a suspect is brandishing a knife, the officer is authorized to use deadly force. I believe here and there are some stipulations… a knife is considered a deadly weapon within a 20 foot range, but not outside of it.

But that being said, I believe in this case it would have been better to shoot to disable, rather than kill.[/quote]

A knife isnt a deadly weapon to a person with any type of fighting skill.

I can think of so many ways to avoid being stabbed or getting the weapon away from the situation completely.
[/quote]

I agree with you completely, a knife isn’t a deadly weapon to a person with any type of fighting skill.

BUT, these guys aren’t trained in close quarters combat; they’re trained to operate radar equipment, shoot a gun, memorize city code, and generally act intimidating. Now, if it were SWAT vs a guy with a knife… actually, no, they’d still shoot him too. Maybe not to kill though.[/quote]

I get it. What i dont get is the"why" for not having hand to hand skills apart of training. It doesnt make any sense to me.

It seems like fighting should be a required course.[/quote]

Agreed. But who are we going to tax for that? The drug dealers? (If only.)

[quote]paulwhite959 wrote:

Bullshit.

I’ve been attacked with a knife while I was unarmed. I got cut. Didn’t wind up needing stitches but it hurt like hell and could easily have been a lot worse if I hadn’t spun and thrown him.

IF (big if) there’s a next time and I’m carrying a gun? You bet your ass I’m going to shoot someone with a knife rather than let them close on me. I don 't feel like risking my life to protect my attacker, thanks.

And you don’t fucking shoot to disable. Take a target the size of a fist. Set it moving on a drag line or something, moving unpredictably and erratically. Try to shoot it. Good fucking luck. You aim center of mass for a reason–it’s the biggest target. You don’t want to shoot someone else by accident or miss entirely.
[/quote]

Yes. Thanks for speaking up.

But don’t you think with 10 erratic shots toward the legs, at least one of them would hit SOMETHING?

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]Ct. Rockula wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]Ct. Rockula wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
Agree with batman. If a suspect is brandishing a knife, the officer is authorized to use deadly force. I believe here and there are some stipulations… a knife is considered a deadly weapon within a 20 foot range, but not outside of it.

But that being said, I believe in this case it would have been better to shoot to disable, rather than kill.[/quote]

A knife isnt a deadly weapon to a person with any type of fighting skill.

I can think of so many ways to avoid being stabbed or getting the weapon away from the situation completely.
[/quote]

I agree with you completely, a knife isn’t a deadly weapon to a person with any type of fighting skill.

BUT, these guys aren’t trained in close quarters combat; they’re trained to operate radar equipment, shoot a gun, memorize city code, and generally act intimidating. Now, if it were SWAT vs a guy with a knife… actually, no, they’d still shoot him too. Maybe not to kill though.[/quote]

I get it. What i dont get is the"why" for not having hand to hand skills apart of training. It doesnt make any sense to me.

It seems like fighting should be a required course.[/quote]

Agreed. But who are we going to tax for that? The drug dealers? (If only.)[/quote]

Volunteer instructors?

Sure. They’d hit the ground, bystanders, trees, rocks, pets…