T Nation

WARNING! Disturbing Images Ahead!


#1

There was a coup d'?tat in Haiti in 2004. The following is a series of photos of something unbelievable. This first photo is of someone who was scalped and had his face deformed. What happened next isn't some horror movie but real life.....


#2

Point?


#3

Happens all over the world, all of the time. War and violence are part of human nature. Sad but un-avoidable in some cases.


#4

I think GW is behind all of this.


#5

Better them than us.


#6

Holy shit Flop Hat, I've seen maybe five of your posts and every single one was something to the extent of "war is inevitable blah blah blah it's human nature blah blah blah it sucks but it has to happen blah blah blah." You're acting as if this means that we should do nothing to try and slow down the fighting and make the world a little more humane. Stop living in the godamn Middle Ages, human life is not indispensible.

No one believes that a completely peaceful world is possible. But you shouldn't believe that it's not worth trying to reach for that goal. I hope I'm not jumping the gun here but I think you've lived a bit too sheltered and safe of a life. Not everyone has to be a human rights activist in the Peace Corps, but you really have to learn some humanity if you feel that war is completely normal and you have a "let it sort itself out" mentality. You need to get in the middle of some godamn atrocities, man, I'm sure you'll change your mind.


#7

The save the world line apparently only applies to Iraq.


#8

The guys here are on pins and needles, desperately hoping and praying for the people of Iraq. I know a lot of guys here will be absolutely devastated if Iraq doesn't become a democracy.

After all, that's why Bush is spending 1.2 billion dollars in taxpayer money in Iraq, every week.


#9

Not really, Clinton has used that line before and in regards to Haiti. Here is the link to the whole speech. Below are some lines that sounded familiar. It should also be noted that Haiti's democracy lasted from December 1990 until 30 September 1991.

http://shs.westport.k12.ct.us/jwb/Collab/19thC%20Diplomacy/HaitiSpeech.htm

REMARKS BY THE PRESIDENT
IN TELEVISION ADDRESS TO THE NATION

There's no question that the Haitian people want to embrace democracy; we know it because they went to the ballot box and told the world. History has taught us that preserving democracy in our own hemisphere strengthens America's security and prosperity. Democracies here are more likely to keep the peace and to stabilize our region. They're more likely to create free markets and economic opportunity, and to become strong, reliable trading partners. And they're more likely to provide their own people with the opportunities that will encourage them to stay in their nation, and to build their own futures.

Restoring Haiti's democratic government will help lead to more stability and prosperity in our region, just as our actions in Panama and Grenada did. Beyond the human rights violations, the immigration problems, the importance of democracy, the United States also has strong interest in not letting dictators -- especially in our own region -- break their word to the United States and the United Nations.

In the post-Cold War world, we will assure the security and prosperity of the United States with our military strength, our economic power, our constant efforts to promote peace and growth. But when our national security interests are threatened, we will use diplomacy when possible and force when necessary.

In Haiti, we have a case in which the right is clear, in which the country in question is nearby, in which our own interests are plain, in which the mission is achievable and limited, and in which the nations of the world stand with us. We must act.

Our mission in Haiti, as it was in Panama and Grenada, will be limited and specific. Our plan to remove the dictators will follow two phases. First, it will remove dictators from power and restore Haiti's legitimate, democratically-elected government. We will train a civilian-controlled Haitian security force that will protect the people rather than repress them. During this period, police monitors from all around the world will work with the authorities to maximize basic security and civil order and minimize retribution.

The Haitian people should know that we come in peace. And you, the American people, should know that our soldiers will not be involved in rebuilding Haiti or its economy. The international community, working together, must provide that economic, humanitarian and technical assistance necessary to help the Haitians rebuild.

I assure you that no president makes decisions like this one without deep thought and prayer. But it's my job as President and Commander-In-Chief to take those actions that I believe will best protect our national security interests.

Let me say again, the nations of the world have tried every possible way to restore Haiti's democratic government peacefully. The dictators have rejected every possible solution. The terror, the desperation, and the instability will not end until they leave. Once again, I urge them to do so. They can still move now and reduce the chaos and disorder, increase the security, stability and the safety in which this transfer back to democracy can occur.

But if they do not leave now, the international community will act to honor our commitments; to give democracy a chance, not to guarantee it; to remove stubborn and cruel dictators, not to impose a future.

I know many people believe that we shouldn't help the Haitian people recover their democracy and find their hard-won freedoms, that the Haitians should accept the violence and repression as their fate. But remember: the same was said of a people who, more than 200 years ago, took up arms against a tyrant whose forces occupied their land. But they were a stubborn bunch, a people who fought for their freedoms and appealed to all those who believed in democracy to help their cause. And their cries were answered, and a new nation was born -- a nation that, ever since, has believed that the rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness should be denied to none.


#10

Sorry Prof, I'm tired as fuck and a little drunk, could you explain what that line meant? I don't understand why you quoted me.


#11

If we do not believe it then we cannot achieve it.

I understand what you are saying, but I'd like to take the opposite end of the spectrum from Flop Hat. Nothing is impossible nd Flop Hat probably knows as much about human nature as anyone else, which of course, is fuckall.

Not necessarily applicable to Flop Hat, but there are far too many self-proclaimed sages out there who, once having taken a high-school course in psychology and learnt the name Freud, believe they understand the workings of the mind and the capablities of humanity. It seems a lot of people have forgotten that the very people who study the workings of the mind, Psychologists will be the first to tell you that we know fuckall!

(Before you begin furiously typing away about the Hypothalamus and Hippocampus, I realise that we do know a little, but it's only the Outer CRUST of SNOW that CAPS the TIP of the Iceberg-Getmeh!?)

I think PGA was trying to keep a reality check on all of us who are extremely fortunate to be away from these atrocities, which as someone said, happens everywhere, all the time.

I think he was trying to incite gratitude for our good fortune whilst also preventing us from allowing a disassociation from ourselves with the unfortunate, the awareness of which, ultimately, inspires the compassion and will for us to help others reach the same level of comfort and good fortune that we damn well better be charishing.


#12

I wasn't speaking from a psychology or philosophical point of view. I was speaking from a anthropological point of view. From the earliest records of man kind war has been with us. War is used not only as a continuation of politics but as a means to its own end. People fight even when it accomplishes nothing. I don't know if world peace is possible or not. I think there may come a time when due to the cost of total warfare and the interconnectedness of the global economy that war may be too expensive to carry out, but deep inside people will still be war like. We see this in the combat sports and team sports.

I don't want to sound like I don't care about the suffering of people, it's just that peace keeping operations almost never work and are very costly. Humanitarian aid missions in areas undergoing civil strife are often completely ineffective, after living together so long in peace they were ready to kill their neighbors over differences that only their grandmothers remembered.

Letting civil wars run their course and helping the refugees with food and medical aid is a better course of action then running head long into a peacekeeping/humanitarian aid mission everytime some country has a rebellion.


#13

You're absolutely right in regards to many humanitarian aid attempts which do nothing more than waste money, and in many cases actually exacerbate a situation. I am of the ageless belief that in order to provide a man with food, do not merely give him fish; teach him how to fish!

However, as you implied, too many people are overzealous and overeager to help, because of overwhelming guilt and desire to bring justice to the less fortunate. In one of my favorite collections of short stories, the author makes a very valid point: 'Maybe if less people were trying to be heroes/save the world, it might be a lot less fucked up.'

All this being said, I believe the resolution is not for us to let it be, or to ignore it, especially since it can be argued with substantial evidence that many of the third world ailments can be attributed to the actions taken by the Europeans and their descendants (Caucasian-Americans, for example). Having said that, I don't believe that the scapegoatish attempts to put blame on the people of today for the atrocities of our ancestors is justified. However, I do believe that since we owe much of our good fortune to the exploitation of third world countries, and since we believe in justice, equality, and democracy we should do what we can to bring about the standard of Living for all people. This of course, is far far easier said than done.

For example, while I believe that in the long run, the invasion of Iraq may indeed improve the quality of life for the Iraqis, I do not believe that this was the main reason for the invasion. I think many want to believe this, and our governments indeed suggest it, their interests lie within themselves and that of their people(if that). I wont suggest any number of 'conspiracies' as to what their real intentions are because I cannot be certain what is the truth, nor will it contribute to this debate. I suppose, I am using it as an example of the complexity of 'helping' others, and also the how wanting to help others, and actually doing it are very different things.

Also, while this may sound contradictory to what I have been suggesting to this point, I believe our governments should bring their focus and efforts back into their own borders before they attempt to begin policing the world and spreading a doctrine which they have yet to fully indoctrinate, so to speak. However, once again it could be argued that the actions I have dubbed world-policing are actually actions of a different nature, and most likely of self-interest, or often very dubiously deemed as security measures to ensure the safety of our nations.

Therefore, I believe that humanitarian aid should be managed by international/multicultural independent organisations who approach issues scientifically and focus on development and target the cause, not the symptoms of problems.

In regard to individuals, I think if you don't care about the suffering of others, you are a chimp at best! (not implying that you are FlopHat, unless of course, you don't care about the suffering of others, which I think you said you do...)

Right, I've finished demolishing the concept of 'train of thought' and exploring every possible tangent within reason... :slight_smile:


#14

Death by the sword is preferential to death by the whip.

I know this may sound cold-hearted, but did the haitins fight back? Did this man try to save himself? Did he lie down and take it?

Know why britian and russia were never part of the third reich, like france?
Becuase every time they bombed england, they stood right back up. In the words of Winston Churchhill- "we will fight them on the beaches"
Why do so many people in less developed countries allow themselves to be downtrodden? Nobody, anywhere, should surreder to oppressers. God helps those that help themselves. If people lie down and allow themselves to be beaten, then they truly have no right to complain. Yes, this man may not have been able to be saved, but if they scalped him, that means they were close enough for him to have picked something up and fought back.
WHY do people allow themselves to be put in situations like this?

Not to get into world history, but the Jews (I hope i don't sound anti-semetic) were mass murdered. They had a nasty habit of allowing themselves to be without resisting. The germans were able to kill them partially becuase they didn't fight back. The russians fought them every step of the way. Some of the russians had only 1 rifle, some of them dating back to 1866, between 5 men. But no one could conquer them. They fought and bit and kicked and died every step of the way.
Napoleon couldn't beat the russians- why? because they fought, they bit and they kicked, every step of the way.
The russians couldn't beat the afgahns. The afgahns fought in the hills, the mountains, everywhere. they fought rather then die. The vietnamese- they fought. We know what happened.
One of the airplanes on Sept. 11 fought back. They died, but they saved untold American lives.

I can not feel sorry for this man, until I know wether he died kicking and screaming, lashing out with everything he had against his aggressors, or wether he took his death willingly.


#15

Yes, because the circumstances were very different in those cases!


#16

Uh, proximity?

Lotta French bashing here, too bad.


#17

I don't think I conveyed my point clearly. My point is, are the haitin people standing up for themselves and fighting back or not?


#18

I'm sure if you go over there and give them all guns, bullets and some rudimentary training they'll be much more able to put up a resistance...


#19

Filipinos fought Americans with bolos and still weren't conquered.
My point is that if death is certain, why not do what you can in the hope that your bravery spares another, or motivates others to stand up as well.


#20

Pretty easy for you to say Captain PornStache, however, had you been in their shoes, you'd most likely be singing quite a different tune.

I can't believe you are actually drawing sympathy away from these victims because they didn't put up a good fight or some shit. You are seriously weird in the head.

If you don't understand the circumstances that these people face with intertribal warfare, ethnic cleansing and the like, read up on it or watch the film Hotel Rwanda to see how shit goes down in those places.