War on Russia

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
21

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Sloth wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
SouthernGypsy wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Gael wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
I can see it now, 4 years from now the Draft 10 billion dollars a day America going bankrupt the red white and blue will be the new USR

I think I know what you’re saying:

“In four years, Russia will go to war with us. The draft will come back, we will go bankrupt spending 10B a day, and Russia will win.”

It is feasible

It’s also feasible we won’t go to war with Russia, the draft won’t come back, we won’t spend 10B a day, and Russia won’t win, because, once again, we didn’t go to war.

Please move to whatever country you think is better than the United States.

Do you think that just because I disagree with you I must be unpatriotic? That is why people vote, so they can try to point the country in the right direction. I do not think picking a fight with Russia is too smart, it sounds like something Bush would do.I am surprised Palin would sugest such a stupid thing

While I agree to not wanting to fight Russia on Georgia’s behalf, I’m hoping you don’t see Obama as the alternative.

What is wrong with Obama? Don�??t give me the standard B.S.
The reason I started this post was because I see the flaws of the lack of diplomacy of the republicans, let�??s rattle our saber
[/quote]

Well, since you missed the line of thought on going to war with Russia, I will explain it to you. She is for making Georgia and Ukraine part of NATO. As a member of NATO, we would protect Georgia or Ukraine if Russia ever invaded either country (and that goes for any country in NATO).

Obama is also for Georgia in NATO; therefore, he would call our country to protect Georgia in case of a Russian invasion also.

…quick to judgment, are we?

EDIT:
Here is part of a statement on this issue from The Messiah himself:

"Ukraine and Georgia have also been developing their ties with NATO. Their leaders have declared their readiness to advance a NATO Membership Action Plan, MAP, to prepare for the rights and obligations of membership. They are working to consolidate democratic reforms and to undertake new responsibilities in their relationship with the Alliance. I welcome the desire and actions of these countries to seek closer ties with NATO and hope that NATO responds favorably to their request, consistent with its criteria for membership. Whether Ukraine and Georgia ultimately join NATO will be a decision for the members of the alliance and the citizens of those countries, after a period of open and democratic debate. But they should receive our help and encouragement as they continue to develop ties to Atlantic and European institutions.

“NATO enlargement is not directed against Russia. Russia has an important role to play in European and global affairs and should see NATO as a partner, not as a threat. But we should oppose any efforts by the Russian government to intimidate its neighbors or control their foreign policies. Russia cannot have a veto over which countries join the alliance. Since the end of the Cold War, Republican and Democratic administrations have supported the independence and sovereignty of all the states of Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union, and we must continue to do so. President Putin recent threat to point missiles at Ukraine is simply not the way to promote the peaceful 21st century Europe we seek.”

22

[quote]SouthernGypsy wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

Really? Do you know him? Do you know how he’s voted, or what he’s said in the past before the current administration was in there?

He may have been happy when Clinton was President, or Reagan, or even Carter. You really have no idea. So stop talking out of your ass.

I was happy in the Clinton years. I agreed with a lot of things he did, and thought we were headed in a good direction environmentally and on the world stage. I did much less bitching and moaning back then. I bet most Democrats are similar.

I stand behind my statement…liberals will complain no matter what the United States does. That’s why their complaints are not usually taken seriously. It’s the boy-who-cries-wolf syndrome. If they’re always complaining, people tune out.[/quote]

Completely talking out your ass.

23

[quote]theOUTLAW wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Sloth wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
SouthernGypsy wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Gael wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
I can see it now, 4 years from now the Draft 10 billion dollars a day America going bankrupt the red white and blue will be the new USR

I think I know what you’re saying:

“In four years, Russia will go to war with us. The draft will come back, we will go bankrupt spending 10B a day, and Russia will win.”

It is feasible

It’s also feasible we won’t go to war with Russia, the draft won’t come back, we won’t spend 10B a day, and Russia won’t win, because, once again, we didn’t go to war.

Please move to whatever country you think is better than the United States.

Do you think that just because I disagree with you I must be unpatriotic? That is why people vote, so they can try to point the country in the right direction. I do not think picking a fight with Russia is too smart, it sounds like something Bush would do.I am surprised Palin would sugest such a stupid thing

While I agree to not wanting to fight Russia on Georgia’s behalf, I’m hoping you don’t see Obama as the alternative.

What is wrong with Obama? Don�??t give me the standard B.S.
The reason I started this post was because I see the flaws of the lack of diplomacy of the republicans, let�??s rattle our saber

Well, since you missed the line of thought on going to war with Russia, I will explain it to you. She is for making Georgia and Ukraine part of NATO. As a member of NATO, we would protect Georgia or Ukraine if Russia ever invaded either country (and that goes for any country in NATO).

Obama is also for Georgia in NATO; therefore, he would call our country to protect Georgia in case of a Russian invasion also.

…quick to judgment, are we?

EDIT:
Here is part of a statement on this issue from The Messiah himself:

"Ukraine and Georgia have also been developing their ties with NATO. Their leaders have declared their readiness to advance a NATO Membership Action Plan, MAP, to prepare for the rights and obligations of membership. They are working to consolidate democratic reforms and to undertake new responsibilities in their relationship with the Alliance. I welcome the desire and actions of these countries to seek closer ties with NATO and hope that NATO responds favorably to their request, consistent with its criteria for membership. Whether Ukraine and Georgia ultimately join NATO will be a decision for the members of the alliance and the citizens of those countries, after a period of open and democratic debate. But they should receive our help and encouragement as they continue to develop ties to Atlantic and European institutions.

“NATO enlargement is not directed against Russia. Russia has an important role to play in European and global affairs and should see NATO as a partner, not as a threat. But we should oppose any efforts by the Russian government to intimidate its neighbors or control their foreign policies. Russia cannot have a veto over which countries join the alliance. Since the end of the Cold War, Republican and Democratic administrations have supported the independence and sovereignty of all the states of Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union, and we must continue to do so. President Putin recent threat to point missiles at Ukraine is simply not the way to promote the peaceful 21st century Europe we seek.”
[/quote]

Exactly. They’re in agreement on this issue, heh. I keep seeing Obama supporters jump on this, not even realizing their candidate has the same position!

24

[quote]Sloth wrote:
theOUTLAW wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Sloth wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
SouthernGypsy wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Gael wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
I can see it now, 4 years from now the Draft 10 billion dollars a day America going bankrupt the red white and blue will be the new USR

I think I know what you’re saying:

“In four years, Russia will go to war with us. The draft will come back, we will go bankrupt spending 10B a day, and Russia will win.”

It is feasible

It’s also feasible we won’t go to war with Russia, the draft won’t come back, we won’t spend 10B a day, and Russia won’t win, because, once again, we didn’t go to war.

Please move to whatever country you think is better than the United States.

Do you think that just because I disagree with you I must be unpatriotic? That is why people vote, so they can try to point the country in the right direction. I do not think picking a fight with Russia is too smart, it sounds like something Bush would do.I am surprised Palin would sugest such a stupid thing

While I agree to not wanting to fight Russia on Georgia’s behalf, I’m hoping you don’t see Obama as the alternative.

What is wrong with Obama? Don�??t give me the standard B.S.
The reason I started this post was because I see the flaws of the lack of diplomacy of the republicans, let�??s rattle our saber

Well, since you missed the line of thought on going to war with Russia, I will explain it to you. She is for making Georgia and Ukraine part of NATO. As a member of NATO, we would protect Georgia or Ukraine if Russia ever invaded either country (and that goes for any country in NATO).

Obama is also for Georgia in NATO; therefore, he would call our country to protect Georgia in case of a Russian invasion also.

…quick to judgment, are we?

EDIT:
Here is part of a statement on this issue from The Messiah himself:

"Ukraine and Georgia have also been developing their ties with NATO. Their leaders have declared their readiness to advance a NATO Membership Action Plan, MAP, to prepare for the rights and obligations of membership. They are working to consolidate democratic reforms and to undertake new responsibilities in their relationship with the Alliance. I welcome the desire and actions of these countries to seek closer ties with NATO and hope that NATO responds favorably to their request, consistent with its criteria for membership. Whether Ukraine and Georgia ultimately join NATO will be a decision for the members of the alliance and the citizens of those countries, after a period of open and democratic debate. But they should receive our help and encouragement as they continue to develop ties to Atlantic and European institutions.

“NATO enlargement is not directed against Russia. Russia has an important role to play in European and global affairs and should see NATO as a partner, not as a threat. But we should oppose any efforts by the Russian government to intimidate its neighbors or control their foreign policies. Russia cannot have a veto over which countries join the alliance. Since the end of the Cold War, Republican and Democratic administrations have supported the independence and sovereignty of all the states of Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union, and we must continue to do so. President Putin recent threat to point missiles at Ukraine is simply not the way to promote the peaceful 21st century Europe we seek.”

Exactly. They’re in agreement on this issue, heh. I keep seeing Obama supporters jump on this, not even realizing their candidate has the same position! [/quote]

I guess I do not run the Gov. Obama foreign policy includes a lot less saber rattling that the Rep.I think the smart way to handle Russia would be to let NATO deal with it so that we do not foot the bill.

25

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

I guess I do not run the Gov. Obama foreign policy includes a lot less saber rattling that the Rep.I think the smart way to handle Russia would be to let NATO deal with it so that we do not foot the bill.
[/quote]

Google NATO, poindexter. We are NATO. We foot the bill.

We should kick Western Europe out, and reform NATO with nations formerly under USSR control.

26

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
SouthernGypsy wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

You really have no idea. So stop talking out of your ass.

Completely talking out your ass.[/quote]

Another liberal trait that shows when liberals don’t agree with your opinion.

27

[quote]rainjack wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

I guess I do not run the Gov. Obama foreign policy includes a lot less saber rattling that the Rep.I think the smart way to handle Russia would be to let NATO deal with it so that we do not foot the bill.

Google NATO, poindexter. We are NATO. We foot the bill.

We should kick Western Europe out, and reform NATO with nations formerly under USSR control. [/quote]

Wow. Just about the craziest suggestion I have heard in a while.

28

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
rainjack wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

I guess I do not run the Gov. Obama foreign policy includes a lot less saber rattling that the Rep.I think the smart way to handle Russia would be to let NATO deal with it so that we do not foot the bill.

Google NATO, poindexter. We are NATO. We foot the bill.

We should kick Western Europe out, and reform NATO with nations formerly under USSR control.

Wow. Just about the craziest suggestion I have heard in a while.[/quote]

You evidently haven’t been reading much of your own writing lately.

But I digress -

Why is it crazy? Why should we continue to defend the EC? Are they incapable of defending their half of the continent themselves? I would much rather form an alliance with countries that are not sniveling little spoiled brats.

29

[quote]SouthernGypsy wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
SouthernGypsy wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

You really have no idea. So stop talking out of your ass.

Completely talking out your ass.

Another liberal trait that shows when liberals don’t agree with your opinion.[/quote]

Oh yes. Just like when you don’t agree with the GOP propaganda it’s always, “Well, you can leave anytime.”

Fucking hypocrite.

30

[quote]theOUTLAW wrote:

Well, since you missed the line of thought on going to war with Russia, I will explain it to you. She is for making Georgia and Ukraine part of NATO. As a member of NATO, we would protect Georgia or Ukraine if Russia ever invaded either country (and that goes for any country in NATO).

Obama is also for Georgia in NATO; therefore, he would call our country to protect Georgia in case of a Russian invasion also.

…quick to judgment, are we?

EDIT:
Here is part of a statement on this issue from The Messiah himself:

"Ukraine and Georgia have also been developing their ties with NATO. Their leaders have declared their readiness to advance a NATO Membership Action Plan, MAP, to prepare for the rights and obligations of membership. They are working to consolidate democratic reforms and to undertake new responsibilities in their relationship with the Alliance. I welcome the desire and actions of these countries to seek closer ties with NATO and hope that NATO responds favorably to their request, [u]consistent with its criteria for membership. Whether Ukraine and Georgia ultimately join NATO will be a decision for the members of the alliance and the citizens of those countries, after a period of open and democratic debate.[/u] But they should receive our help and encouragement as they continue to develop ties to Atlantic and European institutions.

“NATO enlargement is not directed against Russia. Russia has an important role to play in European and global affairs and should see NATO as a partner, not as a threat. But we should oppose any efforts by the Russian government to intimidate its neighbors or control their foreign policies. Russia cannot have a veto over which countries join the alliance. Since the end of the Cold War, Republican and Democratic administrations have supported the independence and sovereignty of all the states of Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union, and we must continue to do so. President Putin recent threat to point missiles at Ukraine is simply not the way to promote the peaceful 21st century Europe we seek.”
[/quote]

Isn’t that code for “If all the members of NATO don’t support Georgia’s membership (and they don’t) I won’t really press the issue”?

Seems to me like Obama and McCain have very different views on this matter.

31

Sounds like Obama is talking out of his ass.

32

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
theOUTLAW wrote:

Well, since you missed the line of thought on going to war with Russia, I will explain it to you. She is for making Georgia and Ukraine part of NATO. As a member of NATO, we would protect Georgia or Ukraine if Russia ever invaded either country (and that goes for any country in NATO).

Obama is also for Georgia in NATO; therefore, he would call our country to protect Georgia in case of a Russian invasion also.

…quick to judgment, are we?

EDIT:
Here is part of a statement on this issue from The Messiah himself:

"Ukraine and Georgia have also been developing their ties with NATO. Their leaders have declared their readiness to advance a NATO Membership Action Plan, MAP, to prepare for the rights and obligations of membership.

They are working to consolidate democratic reforms and to undertake new responsibilities in their relationship with the Alliance.

I welcome the desire and actions of these countries to seek closer ties with NATO and hope that NATO responds favorably to their request, [b][u]consistent with its criteria for membership.

Whether Ukraine and Georgia ultimately join NATO will be a decision for the members of the alliance and the citizens of those countries, after a period of open and democratic debate.[/b][/u] But they should receive our help and encouragement as they continue to develop ties to Atlantic and European institutions.

"NATO enlargement is not directed against Russia. Russia has an important role to play in European and global affairs and should see NATO as a partner, not as a threat.

But we should oppose any efforts by the Russian government to intimidate its neighbors or control their foreign policies. Russia cannot have a veto over which countries join the alliance.

Since the end of the Cold War, Republican and Democratic administrations have supported the independence and sovereignty of all the states of Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union, and we must continue to do so.

President Putin recent threat to point missiles at Ukraine is simply not the way to promote the peaceful 21st century Europe we seek."

Isn’t that code for “If all the members of NATO don’t support Georgia’s membership (and they don’t) I won’t really press the issue”?

Seems to me like Obama and McCain have very different views on this matter.
[/quote]

Uh, with either McCain or Obama as president, potential members would go through the NATO process, scrutinized by NATO, decided by NATO.

Further, what you’ve quoted is Obama saying that the US would be helping and encouraging just the kind of ties needed to put Georgia into a favorable position for membership. There’s no difference.

33

Both Obama (at least he says this) and McCain have supported the idea of Ukraine and Georgia joining NATO.

If they are in NATO then all the members of NATO are bound by Article 5 to come to the defense of an attacked member.

So yes, if Russia invades a NATO member, then it is not out of the question that military force will have to be used in the end.

Otherwise, what is the point of NATO?

34

[quote]bald eagle wrote:

Otherwise, what is the point of NATO? [/quote]

To waste U.S. taxes?

35

Wait, I thought McCain was pushing hard for Georgia in NATO. It thought Obama was not. I tried looking up McCain’s stance on his website but couldn’t find it. Anyone have an exact quote from him? Is it as…uhh…coded as Obama’s was?

36

Obama has confronted the crisis in Georgia in more modulated tones, initially sounding closer to Bush than McCain, but later condemning the Russian aggression in strong terms, saying there was “no possible justification” for it.

Unlike McCain, he has also taken note of Georgia’s military actions in the breakaway region known as South Ossetia. He supports Georgia’s candidacy for NATO and has called for a review of Russia’s application to join the World Trade Organization, but has not followed McCain in threatening to expel Russia from the G-8.

Article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/12/AR2008081202935.html

37

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
Wait, I thought McCain was pushing hard for Georgia in NATO. It thought Obama was not.[/quote]

Well, Obama’s own website disproves this assumption. He supports a MAP for Georgia, with the US in a role to help Georgia foster the needed relationships.

[quote]I tried looking up McCain’s stance on his website but couldn’t find it. Anyone have an exact quote from him? Is it as…uhh…coded as Obama’s was?
[/quote]

Obama’s stance is coded? He welcomes a MAP for Georgia, implores NATO to allow them entry into the process, and sees the US as having a role as Georgia’s guide and chaperone. What’s coded?

I don’t understand needing to see something on McCain’s site. We know it’s the exact same stance. He’s said so.

38

[quote]rainjack wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
rainjack wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

I guess I do not run the Gov. Obama foreign policy includes a lot less saber rattling that the Rep.I think the smart way to handle Russia would be to let NATO deal with it so that we do not foot the bill.

Google NATO, poindexter. We are NATO. We foot the bill.

We should kick Western Europe out, and reform NATO with nations formerly under USSR control.

Wow. Just about the craziest suggestion I have heard in a while.

You evidently haven’t been reading much of your own writing lately.

But I digress -

Why is it crazy? Why should we continue to defend the EC? Are they incapable of defending their half of the continent themselves? I would much rather form an alliance with countries that are not sniveling little spoiled brats. [/quote]

I’m not defending NATO or the fact that we basically subsidize European countries that don’t want to spend anything on defense. That’s not the crazy part.

The crazy part would be us chaining ourselves to a reciprocal alliance with third-rate Eastern European militaries that would offer us next to nothing in return for us potentially shedding American blood over their quarrels with Russia. Does that make any sense?

39

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
rainjack wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
rainjack wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

I guess I do not run the Gov. Obama foreign policy includes a lot less saber rattling that the Rep.I think the smart way to handle Russia would be to let NATO deal with it so that we do not foot the bill.

Google NATO, poindexter. We are NATO. We foot the bill.

We should kick Western Europe out, and reform NATO with nations formerly under USSR control.

Wow. Just about the craziest suggestion I have heard in a while.

You evidently haven’t been reading much of your own writing lately.

But I digress -

Why is it crazy? Why should we continue to defend the EC? Are they incapable of defending their half of the continent themselves? I would much rather form an alliance with countries that are not sniveling little spoiled brats.

I’m not defending NATO or the fact that we basically subsidize European countries that don’t want to spend anything on defense. That’s not the crazy part.

The crazy part would be us chaining ourselves to a reciprocal alliance with third-rate Eastern European militaries that would offer us next to nothing in return for us potentially shedding American blood over their quarrels with Russia. Does that make any sense?[/quote]

True, true. Though I get the feeling RJ was just making a point about our present NATO allies. I think.

40

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
I’m not defending NATO or the fact that we basically subsidize European countries that don’t want to spend anything on defense. That’s not the crazy part.

The crazy part would be us chaining ourselves to a reciprocal alliance with third-rate Eastern European militaries that would offer us next to nothing in return for us potentially shedding American blood over their quarrels with Russia. Does that make any sense?[/quote]

What’s the difference between the Eastern Euro countries now, and the state of the Western Euro countries when we signed on to NATO?

You really think that those countries in the East are looking to pick a fight with Russia? I would think they would just want to be left the fuck alone, and using the US as a running buddy would keep Russia from pulling a Georgia on all the other former prisoners of the Iron Curtain.

We are already obligated to spill American blood for people who vilify us. I would rather do it for countries who are willing to fight with us.

Fuck Western Europe.