War on Drugs Takes Hit

[quote]ElbowStrike wrote:
orion wrote:
OMG that would be like legalizing the DEMON ALCOHOL!!!

Alright, equating meth and alcohol is simply retarded. The addictive potential of meth versus alcohol differs in orders of magnitude. Chronic meth use does more damage in a year than a lifetime of alcohol abuse. They do not compare in the least.

Pot on the other hand would be a fair comparison.

As Zap said, each drug should be evaluated individually.

ElbowStrike[/quote]

Well said.

Think about all of the complete morons that live in your hometown. Do you really want them to be able to wander down to the local convenience store with a side arm strapped to their waist and get cranked up on some meth.

Libertarian minded people always seem to think of themselves when they try to justify boundless personal freedoms.

From what I know of them, I wouldn’t mind if Varq or Mikey or Liftic had all the personal freedom in the world. I think they have the common sense and decency to live a life that would not impose or become a burden on others.

The problem is, these aren’t the only type of people who live in this country. We are surrounded by morally and mentally bankrupt people at every turn.

We have a population that cannot even be trusted to make healthy food choices for themselves and their families.

You want to let them have heroin and meth at their disposal?

It’s an absurd notion.

Edited to try to add clarity

[quote]new2training wrote:
orion wrote:
new2training wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

There is no solution but we can make improvements. We do need to reevaluate each drug and adjust its legality based on its addictiveness and effects. Locking up people for pot is a waste.

Agree w/ Zap on this proposal.

But you would have to be crazy to want substances like meth and heroin cheap and readily available to all of the idiots in this country. They do enough stupid shit sobre.

One of the worst things the war on drugs did was to try to equate all drugs as the same. Now, some people who want to legalize all drugs are making the same mistake.

Oxycontin is legal and highly regulated. Look at the damage it did in some communities in KY, TN, VA, and WV.

Can you imagine if it was sold over the counter? Can you imagine if meth was sold over the counter?

OMG that would be like legalizing the DEMON ALCOHOL!!!

Orion, you are much smarter than that. Equating Alcohol and Meth is borderline retarded.

Don’t think in absolutes. There is a whole spectrum of colors out there. [/quote]

I know. I also know that I do not care how much someone else damages himself when it comes to making something illegal.

It is up to him to fuck up. It is up to him to fuck up royally.

The very degree someone is able to fuck up is a measure of how free he is.

Those determined to fuck up will do so anyway and those who don´t simply won´t buy that stuff no matter what.

The idea that more people would line up to destroy themselves if it was only cheaper is absurd as if more people would commit suicide if they only could afford it.

[quote]orion wrote:

OMG that would be like legalizing the DEMON ALCOHOL!!!

Orion, you are much smarter than that. Equating Alcohol and Meth is borderline retarded.

Don’t think in absolutes. There is a whole spectrum of colors out there.

I know. I also know that I do not care how much someone else damages himself when it comes to making something illegal.

It is up to him to fuck up. It is up to him to fuck up royally.

The very degree someone is able to fuck up is a measure of how free he is.

Those determined to fuck up will do so anyway and those who don´t simply won´t buy that stuff no matter what.

The idea that more people would line up to destroy themselves if it was only cheaper is absurd as if more people would commit suicide if they only could afford it.

[/quote]

I agree with the concept that people should be able to fuck up their own lives. Nature or Deity gave man free will.

However people’s decisions and actions rarely occur in a vacuum. They affect other people. Whether it’s their kids, neighbors, or strangers.

On top of that, for better or worse, I live in a country (U.S.) that has a rather larger social safety net. The tax payers are the ones who would be forced to pick up the tab when people’s lives fall apart from drug abuse.

Well I’ll have to go ahead and disagree with you on that, orion. Making all drugs legal and openly available only allows the “drug curious” population (read: children and teens) an easy means of access.

That inevitably leads to a larger number of addicts in need of a fix, roaming around in public, stealing things to pay for their next hit.

Another strategy would be to legalize all of these recreational drugs and then tax the hell out of them. 500% sales tax on heroin, 1000% on meth, etc.

Make the rec-drug taxes so ridiculous that nobody will buy them legitimately. Then, throw the dealers before a tax court for evasion. It’s a much more cost-effective system.

Dealer didn’t pay the meth sales tax? The government puts a $400,000 lein on his house. Heroin tax evasion? I guess we’ll have to confiscate his low-rider.

ElbowStrike

[quote]ElbowStrike wrote:
Well I’ll have to go ahead and disagree with you on that, orion. Making all drugs legal and openly available only allows the “drug curious” population (read: children and teens) an easy means of access.

That inevitably leads to a larger number of addicts in need of a fix, roaming around in public, stealing things to pay for their next hit.

Another strategy would be to legalize all of these recreational drugs and then tax the hell out of them. 500% sales tax on heroin, 1000% on meth, etc.

Make the rec-drug taxes so ridiculous that nobody will buy them legitimately. Then, throw the dealers before a tax court for evasion. It’s a much more cost-effective system.

Dealer didn’t pay the meth sales tax? The government puts a $400,000 lein on his house. Heroin tax evasion? I guess we’ll have to confiscate his low-rider.

ElbowStrike[/quote]

I disagree I think it forces people to take responsibility for themselves and their families. They will have to learn on their own, but that is not why I think drugs should be legal. I think they should be legal because I do not think the government has a right to tell you what you can and cannot put into your own body. It’s just none of their fucking business.

Besides, we are not a society of abstinence we are society who frowns on drugs that make us feel good (on the surface). Hard-on drugs, prostate shrinker’s, toe nail fungus drugs, restless leg syndrome drugs, etc. What ever else they can pander on us they do. Cocaine has a terrible profit margin compared to these other drugs. They got a pill to make you cum so hard you go blind and another that will bring back your vision. What a racket.

[quote]ElbowStrike wrote:
Well I’ll have to go ahead and disagree with you on that, orion. Making all drugs legal and openly available only allows the “drug curious” population (read: children and teens) an easy means of access.

ElbowStrike[/quote]

How would it be an easy means of access. Send a 12 year old down the street with $20 and ask him to get you a 6 of beer and a bag of weed. He’ll come back with the weed, he won’t have the beer

The present drug laws have done nothing to keep kids from getting ahold of drugs. They have a harder time buying alchohol because alchohol venders have liscences to protect. Dealers don’t ask for ID’s.

Addiction is a medical issue, trying to cure it with law enforcement is the wrong way. To try and cure an incurable disease by making it illegal to show symtoms of the diesase is insane.

The money wasted on the war on drugs would be better spent on treatment.

Interdiction is a self defeating strategy. The more you restrict the supply the higher the price making it more profitable to meet the demand. This is market economics 101. The government dictating market demands is called a command economy. Capitalism kicks ass on communism everyday. That is why the war on drugs has been such a failure.

[quote]orion wrote:
I know. I also know that I do not care how much someone else damages himself when it comes to making something illegal.

It is up to him to fuck up. It is up to him to fuck up royally.

The very degree someone is able to fuck up is a measure of how free he is.

Those determined to fuck up will do so anyway and those who don´t simply won´t buy that stuff no matter what.

The idea that more people would line up to destroy themselves if it was only cheaper is absurd as if more people would commit suicide if they only could afford it.[/quote]

Have you ever been around meth abusers? Because they most certainly do not harmlessly keep their addiction to themselves. The production of meth is dangerous to others through fire damage and the abusers themselves are dangerous to others through violence.

I completely agree that many drugs are harmful only to the user, and that it should be the user’s decision to use or not.

Meth is not one of those drugs.

[quote]tGunslinger wrote:
orion wrote:
I know. I also know that I do not care how much someone else damages himself when it comes to making something illegal.

It is up to him to fuck up. It is up to him to fuck up royally.

The very degree someone is able to fuck up is a measure of how free he is.

Those determined to fuck up will do so anyway and those who don´t simply won´t buy that stuff no matter what.

The idea that more people would line up to destroy themselves if it was only cheaper is absurd as if more people would commit suicide if they only could afford it.

Have you ever been around meth abusers? Because they most certainly do not harmlessly keep their addiction to themselves. The production of meth is dangerous to others through fire damage and the abusers themselves are dangerous to others through violence.

I completely agree that many drugs are harmful only to the user, and that it should be the user’s decision to use or not.

Meth is not one of those drugs. [/quote]

And how did making the stuff illegal work so far?

Would you be taking meth just because it was cheaper?

Why would anybody else other than those who already use it?

Meth should be legal. Making meth in one’s bedroom, yards away from a neighbor’s house, shouldn’t be. States are very capable of regulating were such things are to be concocted.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Meth should be legal. Making meth in one’s bedroom, yards away from a neighbor’s house, shouldn’t be. States are very capable of regulating were such things are to be concocted.[/quote]

If Meth were legal you could bastardize the formula and make it less bad. Or you could have a few drugs that were kept illegal. But you could drop all the jail time and legal hassle that comes with drugs like Marijuana and other drugs that have legitimate uses as well as recreation. I think antibiotics would be the type of drugs you would want to supervise by the medical community.

[quote]orion wrote:
tGunslinger wrote:
orion wrote:
I know. [b]I also know that I do not care how much someone else damages himself when it comes to making something illegal.

It is up to him to fuck up. It is up to him to fuck up royally.

The very degree someone is able to fuck up is a measure of how free he is.[/b]

Those determined to fuck up will do so anyway and those who don´t simply won´t buy that stuff no matter what.

The idea that more people would line up to destroy themselves if it was only cheaper is absurd as if more people would commit suicide if they only could afford it.

Have you ever been around meth abusers? Because they most certainly do not harmlessly keep their addiction to themselves. The production of meth is dangerous to others through fire damage and the abusers themselves are dangerous to others through violence.

I completely agree that many drugs are harmful only to the user, and that it should be the user’s decision to use or not.

Meth is not one of those drugs.

And how did making the stuff illegal work so far?

Would you be taking meth just because it was cheaper?

Why would anybody else other than those who already use it?

[/quote]

I bolded the part of your post that I orignally responded to.

Having lived in a small town with a big meth abuse problem, I do not believe at all that problems from meth (I argue against meth because my first-hand experience of the effects of really dangerous drugs is limited to meth) are limited only to the user. Thusly, I support the continued illegalization of meth specifically.

Generally, I believe that the government should reclassify drugs so that they can maximize their resources to limit the spread and abuse of drugs that are truly harmful to society, and stop wasting time and money trying to stop drugs that are relatively harmless.

I could be persuaded to support legalization of all drugs if it came bundled with severely harsh penalties for harming people or property during the production of or while under the influence of certain dangerous drugs, like meth.

You arguments about availability and increased usage are reasonable, I think.

One of the biggest problems in setting rational policy is that the policy is being set by people who have little to no understanding of the true nature of addiction.

Also the policy makers are voted into office by an electorate that has little to no understanding of addiction.

For example there is a common misconception that you can just snatch an addict off the street, put them in rehab and the people in rehab will do whatever it is they do so the person will come out fixed. It doesn’t work that way. Rehab only works after an addict has hit their bottom and they become willing to change.

Addiction is a fever, it has to be fed enough for the addict to hit bottom. Limiting consumption through prohibition or sin taxes just prolongs how long it takes for an addict to hit bottom.

[quote]orion wrote:
tGunslinger wrote:
orion wrote:
I know. I also know that I do not care how much someone else damages himself when it comes to making something illegal.

It is up to him to fuck up. It is up to him to fuck up royally.

The very degree someone is able to fuck up is a measure of how free he is.

Those determined to fuck up will do so anyway and those who don´t simply won´t buy that stuff no matter what.

The idea that more people would line up to destroy themselves if it was only cheaper is absurd as if more people would commit suicide if they only could afford it.

Have you ever been around meth abusers? Because they most certainly do not harmlessly keep their addiction to themselves. The production of meth is dangerous to others through fire damage and the abusers themselves are dangerous to others through violence.

I completely agree that many drugs are harmful only to the user, and that it should be the user’s decision to use or not.

Meth is not one of those drugs.

And how did making the stuff illegal work so far?

Would you be taking meth just because it was cheaper?

Why would anybody else other than those who already use it?

[/quote]

Price is a phony argument. Many people avoid meth because it is illegal. If it were legal more people would try it.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Price is a phony argument. Many people avoid meth because it is illegal. If it were legal more people would try it.[/quote]

So…?

Why do you hate freedom?

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
tGunslinger wrote:
orion wrote:
I know. I also know that I do not care how much someone else damages himself when it comes to making something illegal.

It is up to him to fuck up. It is up to him to fuck up royally.

The very degree someone is able to fuck up is a measure of how free he is.

Those determined to fuck up will do so anyway and those who don´t simply won´t buy that stuff no matter what.

The idea that more people would line up to destroy themselves if it was only cheaper is absurd as if more people would commit suicide if they only could afford it.

Have you ever been around meth abusers? Because they most certainly do not harmlessly keep their addiction to themselves. The production of meth is dangerous to others through fire damage and the abusers themselves are dangerous to others through violence.

I completely agree that many drugs are harmful only to the user, and that it should be the user’s decision to use or not.

Meth is not one of those drugs.

And how did making the stuff illegal work so far?

Would you be taking meth just because it was cheaper?

Why would anybody else other than those who already use it?

Price is a phony argument. Many people avoid meth because it is illegal. If it were legal more people would try it.[/quote]

Who do you know that did not try weed because it was illegal?

Or did not drink or smoke as a teenager because it was verboten?

I can show you people though that try stuff because it is illegal.

Zap have you ever known a meth head or a crackhead? I’ve known a few. Knowledge not legality is what keeps me far away from that shit.

I think most people would not run out and start using meth just because it was decriminalized.

I don’t think any reasonable person would think making it an over the counter item would be a good idea. But it could be handled through presciptions.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:

Price is a phony argument. Many people avoid meth because it is illegal. If it were legal more people would try it.[/quote]

So is legality…I don’t give a shit if meth was legal and free, I’d avoid it like the plague because it’s a vial chemical. That doesn’t mean I give a damn if someone train wrecks their life over it. People do it anyway, nothing has stopped it, nothing.

[quote]orion wrote:

Price is a phony argument. Many people avoid meth because it is illegal. If it were legal more people would try it.

Who do you know that did not try weed because it was illegal?

Or did not drink or smoke as a teenager because it was verboten?

I can show you people though that try stuff because it is illegal.

[/quote]

Most everyone that didn’t smoke. I would probably smoke pot if it were legal today. The fact that it is illegal stops millions of people from bothering.

[quote]pat36 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

Price is a phony argument. Many people avoid meth because it is illegal. If it were legal more people would try it.

So is legality…I don’t give a shit if meth was legal and free, I’d avoid it like the plague because it’s a vial chemical. That doesn’t mean I give a damn if someone train wrecks their life over it. People do it anyway, nothing has stopped it, nothing.
[/quote]

What if you were all liquored up and you saw it in the Kwickee Mart while you were microwaving burritos? Would you make the same decision?