Wages Rose after Immigration Raids

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Takes more than cheap labor to keep a country together. [/quote]

Keeping a country together only happens when individuals collectively will it. Labor prices have nothing to do with a country as a whole.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Takes more than cheap labor to keep a country together.

Keeping a country together only happens when individuals collectively will it. Labor prices have nothing to do with a country as a whole.[/quote]

Please explain that, are you sure hickey is not writing that

What is a country? It is an abstract concept that people have to collectively believe in for it to exist. If people all of a sudden stop recognizing the USA it no longer exists. Labor has nothing to do with it.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
What is a country? It is an abstract concept that people have to collectively believe in for it to exist. If people all of a sudden stop recognizing the USA it no longer exists. Labor has nothing to do with it.

[/quote]

Clashing cultures, displaced citizens looking for a safety net, “balkanization,” self identified hypen americans competing for “protection” (priviledges) at the expense of other hyphen americans. A completely entrenched and unbeatable welfare state (especially if amnesty makes them all voters).

I know you’re coming from the view of no borders, no countries, no democracy (can’t vote for constructing a welfare state), and everyone holds the relationship between any two individuals as a voluntary merchant and costumer unit. But that’s as utopian as the Marxist vision. Your anarchy would more resemble Somolia than in a Utopia in short order.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
But that’s as utopian as the Marxist vision. Your anarchy would more resemble Somolia than in a Utopia in short order.[/quote]

I don’t think it is Utopian at all; the shortcomings of man pretty much guarantee there will always be conflict.

My argument is that a stateless society would be much more efficient at handling conflict – besides, the state is the biggest creator of conflict.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
besides, the state is the biggest creator of conflict.[/quote]

I wish more people would realize that.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
besides, the state is the biggest creator of conflict.[/quote]

And the state is here to stay. Even if you were granted the one time ability to wish away the state, leaving anarchy, it’d be shortlived. People would organize themselves for defense (and yes, shocker, for offense too), courts, common laws, etc. Your anarchy would turn into a crap ton of squabling mini-states. Until, well, we’re back to big nation states.

Marxists and Anarcho-Capitalists really are the same. They envision a world that simply can’t exist according to human history and nature.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Sloth wrote:
But that’s as utopian as the Marxist vision. Your anarchy would more resemble Somolia than in a Utopia in short order.

I don’t think it is Utopian at all; the shortcomings of man pretty much guarantee there will always be conflict.

My argument is that a stateless society would be much more efficient at handling conflict – besides, the state is the biggest creator of conflict.[/quote]

Do you mean might makes right ?

[quote]Sloth wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
besides, the state is the biggest creator of conflict.

And the state is here to stay. Even if you were granted the one time ability to wish away the state, leaving anarchy, it’d be shortlived. People would organize themselves for defense (and yes, shocker, for offense too), courts, common laws, etc. Your anarchy would turn into a crap ton of squabling mini-states. Until, well, we’re back to big nation states.

Marxists and Anarcho-Capitalists really are the same. They envision a world that simply can’t exist according to human history and nature. [/quote]

I agree, there is no way to organize anarchy into existence – nor can we just wish the state away, for that matter. Until technology makes it possible for the individual to ignor the state it will be here for the time being.

But there are examples throughout history that shed some light on this. Ireland and Scotland were both anarchic societies at one time.

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Do you mean might makes right ?[/quote]

Might protects right.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

I agree, there is no way to organize anarchy into existence – nor can we just wish the state away, for that matter. Until technology makes it possible for the individual to ignor the state it will be here for the time being.

[/quote]

You ever read any John C. Wright? I think you’d like the Golden Age trilogy.

Well, I’m a middle of the road kind of guy. I won’t use the worn out line that states that we are a nation of immigrants because really thats completely ineffective. I will say this: At it’s genesis the loudest cries of freedom came not from the slaves but from the slave holders. But that’s another subject.

Without giving away too much information, I know for a fact first hand that these evil “illegals” for a fact pay taxes (give me a number and you’ll get a check with deductions) and will work an honorable citizen under the table. With a “Vamos muchachos!” they get the task done with only minor monitoring. This is crucial on a tract when the foreman has several jobsites and several meetings with project managers, building inspectors, subs, suppliers, etc and doesn’t have the time to hold someones hand.

I would happily buy the gang lunch everyday. They cost less, work harder, and pay The Man. John wants $20/hour, 1 hr lunch breaks, water breaks, smoke breaks, standing breaks, go to the truck breaks, texting breaks, and my favorite (I actually drove my truck into the motherfucker when the boys told me what he was doing) go to the crapper to smoke breaks while Jose and Juan want $16 and are worth 4 Johns each.

Humm, who do I want and is less costly? I’m not saying that their lighter counterparts are lazy but in my experience 4 out of 10 were honest to god proud American blue collar workers. I do agree that the small minority of illegal immigrants that are bad seeds and are a drain on the state. I’m very much against their constant use of the WIC cards. I work hard because thousands depend on me, right?

I’m profoundly against those that choose a life of crime and then turn around and demand the same civil prison priveledges as a legal alien, but what can you do? Throw them over the border and hope he/she learned his lesson? More importantly, I’m profoundly against some the refuse to intergrate into American culture. Arnold confirmed this a while ago by stating that “THE MEXICANS (ALL) refuse to intergrate to American society.”

I still have trouble understanding what he says, but M’KAY. Some refuse to learn the language and abandon habits of the motherland. Although I don’t agree with the “Speak English or get out” mentality because thats pretty narrow minded if not ignorant, this is a predominantly English speaking nation. When in Rome, right? Theres always a negative and a positive to every issue.

Regardless of popular opinion a major immigration reform is past due. We cannot simply put all of them in the same category as the bad seeds. An “illegal” at Harvard Law shouldn’t be placed on the same scale with Pedro the con, that gets paid cash, doesn’t speak a lick of English, doesn’t care either, and is only looking forward to going back to Mexico to only give a good “Chinga tu madre” to the U.S.

You don’t have to be terribly smart to see who is a greater asset to the union. So when people put them both on the same scale I see that with no higher regard than when people like them labeled every African-American inferior in every aspect. I’m not for amnesty, but I am for a system that allows a select few a safe and secure shot at the American dream for whatever it means to them. I see only a great influx of honest hard workers in whatever their field is. I’m open to discussion on the issue.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Do you mean might makes right ?

Might protects right.[/quote]

what would prevent ‘might’ from ruling

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Do you mean might makes right ?

Might protects right.

what would prevent ‘might’ from ruling
[/quote]

The might of free people standing guard for their own freedom.

[quote]Growing_Boy wrote:
Well, I’m a middle of the road kind of guy. I won’t use the worn out line that states that we are a nation of immigrants because really thats completely ineffective. I will say this: At it’s genesis the loudest cries of freedom came not from the slaves but from the slave holders. But that’s another subject…[/quote]

Good post.

[quote]Growing_Boy wrote:
I’m not for amnesty, but I am for a system that allows a select few a safe and secure shot at the American dream for whatever it means to them. [/quote]

Then you’d agree with securing the borders and deporting illegals.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Do you mean might makes right ?

Might protects right.

what would prevent ‘might’ from ruling

The might of free people standing guard for their own freedom.[/quote]

I know our government has morphed into a power of its own. But with out an organized effort (our government) the strongest forces would rule, just like Afghanistan and is happening in Mexico now

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I know our government has morphed into a power of its own. But with out an organized effort (our government) the strongest forces would rule, just like Afghanistan and is happening in Mexico now
[/quote]

Why do you assume that they would want to rule instead of using their “strength” to help innovate and improve the quality of people’s lives?

You must also understand it isn’t just the mighty whom seek power. It is the people who crave dominance just for dominance sake. There will always be someone more dominant and powerful waiting to take their place. Power never lasts. Historically this has been shown over and over again. Ruling by might does not work in the long run.

Think about the people who frequent this site who really and truly have liberty’s best interest at heart. Do you think we desire liberty because we wish to oppress and subjugate weaker people?

I know for a fact that an army of righteous people will always dominate those with evil intent. Good always triumphs because good is more powerful and mighty. Sometime it just takes the right people to cheer on and lead others to their own salvation.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
I know our government has morphed into a power of its own. But with out an organized effort (our government) the strongest forces would rule, just like Afghanistan and is happening in Mexico now

Why do you assume that they would want to rule instead of using their “strength” to help innovate and improve the quality of people’s lives?

You must also understand it isn’t just the mighty whom seek power. It is the people who crave dominance just for dominance sake. There will always be someone more dominant and powerful waiting to take their place. Power never lasts. Historically this has been shown over and over again. Ruling by might does not work in the long run.

Think about the people who frequent this site who really and truly have liberty’s best interest at heart. Do you think we desire liberty because we wish to oppress and subjugate weaker people?

I know for a fact that an army of righteous people will always dominate those with evil intent. Good always triumphs because good is more powerful and mighty. Sometime it just takes the right people to cheer on and lead others to their own salvation.[/quote]

Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely
The mighty usually gravitate toward something that brings great wealth, As far as Good always triumphing over evil, you have more religion than I. I believe in God, but I see to many examples of evil dominating over the Good

The more powerful triumph over the less powerful. That is pretty much a universal constant.

If the “good” people are too distracted by television, movies, magazines, slurping back HFCS-laden non-foods, and other forms of instant gratification there is nothing to stop “evil” people from taking over.