T Nation

WAAAAR CYBORG! The Beast is Back!

Combat
#21

[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC-5bVrOstg

GG to Muxlow for taking the fight at the last minute.

Rousey, watch the fuck out, 'cos the most feared fighter in WMMA is back.

Now, how about they make that catch weight fight happen? I’m sure Dana and Rousey aren’t really shitting their pants over Cris, so let’s them girls fight at 140. Cyborg is game but what about coward Rousey?

I wanna see Rousey piss blood on the canvas. I want to see Cyborg demolish and ass rape her like there’s no tomorrow. Make that fucking fight happen already!

[/quote]

Coward Rousey? I am a fan of Cyborg or hell, any Chute Boxe fighter but how the hell is Ronda a coward? Cyborg is the one that needs to prove herself after the PE fails and is naturally a lot bigger.

#22

[quote]kelt_22 wrote:

Coward Rousey? I am a fan of Cyborg or hell, any Chute Boxe fighter but how the hell is Ronda a coward? Cyborg is the one that needs to prove herself after the PE fails and is naturally a lot bigger.[/quote]

I’ve covered why Coward Rousey is indeed a COWARD in the post following the one you quoted.

#23

[quote]sharkOnesie wrote:
I am not very knowledgeable on the subject, I was basing my stance on an interview by “Dr Steve” on the Joe Rogan podcast. He says that it is impossible for a woman to go from what she was to is without steroids. The dude is a medical professional, was an Olympic medalist i believe and seemed quite informed, however I am hardly in a position to know who is right or wrong on the issue having never taking AAS or read up on it much, other than some basic stuff.

The pictures of her at the start of her career v now hints to steroids being the only way to change that much as a woman. She was already a seasoned fighter in the fght she got double knee barred wasn’t she? She looks so different there, in shape but feminine. Her jaw seems to of gotten much bigger too.
[/quote]

With regards to Fallon, I don’t even think a juiced Cyborg should even be compared to Fox. You said the Fallon’s situation is unfair. I don’t agree. Fallon has no business fighting women, and ,I’m saying this as a bisexual, and a supporter of LBGT community.

Fallon was a man for 31 years and I don’t give a shit that she had six years of hormones therapy. It doesn’t change the fact that she still has fully matured male bone structure, and that phase usually happens in our early twenties. Had she undertaken therapy before or during puberty, it would have been a totally different story. The difference between a male and a female’s bone structure is quite distinct and, no amount of hormone therapy will alter bone structure once your bone ends close. The same can be said about steroids users. I can’t tell when she began using, and, I agree, Cyborg’s facial features have definitely changed throughout the years, but she is still a WOMAN, a STRONGER woman (with or without drugs), with fully matured female bone structures, fighting other women who happen to be a bunch of CANS, lol. It ain’t her fault if there aren’t any women worth her calibre out there yet.

Watch some of the Fallon’s fights and see the difference the impact of her blows has on her opponents compared to Cyborg’s. People are moaning about Cyborg dragdolling feminine fragile girls, but it’s even worse with Fallon. And she was a man for fucking 31 years. She lied about her past when she started her fighting career and thought she could get away with beating up females. Cyborg can take all the steroid she wants – all them fighters do, and I’m sure time their cycles accordingly – but there is no way Fallon’s situation should be seen comparable to Cyborg’s, nor deemed as unfair.

Ps: Cyborg vs Fallon - Fallon to win of course. But after a long struggle.

#24

[quote]sharkOnesie wrote:
I am not very knowledgeable on the subject, I was basing my stance on an interview by “Dr Steve” on the Joe Rogan podcast. He says that it is impossible for a woman to go from what she was to is without steroids. The dude is a medical professional, was an Olympic medalist i believe and seemed quite informed, however I am hardly in a position to know who is right or wrong on the issue having never taking AAS or read up on it much, other than some basic stuff.

The pictures of her at the start of her career v now hints to steroids being the only way to change that much as a woman. She was already a seasoned fighter in the fght she got double knee barred wasn’t she? She looks so different there, in shape but feminine. Her jaw seems to of gotten much bigger too.
[/quote]

Ok, I only listened to the first 20 minutes or so of that podcast, so I may have missed it if Dr. Graham made the “absolutely on” dx. I am also fairly certain that no one would make that dx in a clinical sense without strong evidence, so it might have been a bit more “off the cuff”.

Here is the double knee bar video, notable to also see old Brazilian Top Team it is Cyborg’s first MMA fight and happened in 2005.

To my eyes she looks quite a bit softer, and far less skilled.

Here she is in 2006 in her 6th fight.(Note: Both of these, and all her fights to this point, were in Brazil, and PED’s may not have been banned.) Watch without the sound, the music raped my ears.

In the video she looks more muscular, and far more skilled.

Here she is against Shayna Baszler at 140. A couple notes: 1st I think Baszler is just about as big as Santos, if not quite as lean. 2nd and more important; If Steve Mazzigoti and Larry Merchent could just crumble into dust I would find a way to deal with my sadness. Really, I could totally move past it.

I am not seeing anything beyond the established levels of female olympians in terms of muscularity. I am seeing one of the few female fighters that looks like she trains as hard as the top men in the sport.

Regards,

Robert A

#25

[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:
Ps: Cyborg vs Fallon - Fallon to win of course. But after a long struggle.
[/quote]

I am not on that page. From what I know about Fox’s resume, I am not sure she has the technique to hang with Chris. Fox’s wiki page seems pretty light on things like World Champion in BJJ at purple belt, or ADCC experience, or eleventy years of “Chute Boxe, NO BITCH!”. Good BJJ has overcome strength deficits in the past, see a shit ton of past et al.

I’m taking Cyborg. I think the skill makes up for the y chromosome given their similar weights.

Training since 2008 according to this video.

Gratuitous video of Cyborg picking up Tito during training

Regards,

Robert A

#26

hmmm I dont think PED’s played that much of a role for cyborg.

this kind of athlete isnt taking PED’s to get ripped or strong
they take it for recovery to keep training.

yes - she is lean and gorilla strong and yes she is wanderlai in a tutu and wig
but really PED’s dont give you more punching power - they just let you train like a beast
and recover faster

lots of female athletes can take on a ‘mannish’ look PED’s or not
low bodyfat = no mentration = hormone levels good to tear shit up but look like a mang.

being a ‘vintage’ judo BB myself and not a vintage wanderlai wig or no wig
I favor rousey in a bought with cyborg if she can tuck her chin and get some decent head movement.
judo posture >>> BJJ posture. FTW

but I am happy to see cyborg back - she brings it.

#27

I’m a big fan of both ladies.

I think Ronda’s ground game is far more developed than most people give her credit for. She grew up training with Jimmy Pedro,
and has continued at Hayastan with Gokor Chivichyan and Gene LaBell.

That said, the same thing could be said for Cyborg. As someone already mentioned, she’s got an ADCC Bronze medal - and a Brown belt under Andre Galvao.

Both ladies have some serious submission grappling cred in my eyes. I don’t think we’ve seen how good either of them really are on the ground.

They’re both very skilled, aggressive, and passionate about fighting. The most apparent advantage is the striking of Cyborg. That will most likely be the determining factor. It doesn’t mean Cyborg will win, but the advantage is hers in my opinion.

As for the PED issue, I don’t think anyone here is naive enough to believe that just because a professional athlete says they are “natural” means they’re telling the truth. No disrespect to either of them, some get caught and some don’t.

#28

I love opportunities to show off my superior skills at assessing athletes even in sports I have no expertise in. You combat experts (Dark Ninjaa) picking Cyborg are dead wrong. Roussey will win this match when it happens. Most likely she will not just submit but will snap the arm just to make a point. 'Cause that’s the way she is.

This fight will happen too. Ronda’s no pussy, she may play games to get the best terms possible (by “terms” I mean fight weight, money and psychological) but eventually this fight will happen. There’s not much other competition for Ronda to fight and any athlete in her position will want to show everyone that she’s the best. She’s looking forward to this.

#29

They should have this tranny fight that other tranny that everyones talking about now.

#30

When it comes to women, steroids are the gift that keeps on giving.

#31

[quote]on edge wrote:
This fight will happen too. Ronda’s no pussy, she may play games to get the best terms possible (by “terms” I mean fight weight, money and psychological) but eventually this fight will happen. There’s not much other competition for Ronda to fight and any athlete in her position will want to show everyone that she’s the best. She’s looking forward to this. [/quote]
I dont care who will win, the fight is going to be amazing anyways.
Ronda is on a completely different level than Gina Carano, she stands a good chance!
Gina was a a good Muay Thai Striker, her Grappling was never up to the standards today though.
the only bonus she had in my eyes when she fought Cyborg was that she was much hotter and therefore the crowd supported rather her than Cyborg. I remember the entire crowd booing when Cris had her on the ground.

Personally I count this fight as a win for Ronda. She is strong, technical and has the fans on her side.

#32

[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:

[quote]sharkOnesie wrote:
I am not very knowledgeable on the subject, I was basing my stance on an interview by “Dr Steve” on the Joe Rogan podcast. He says that it is impossible for a woman to go from what she was to is without steroids. The dude is a medical professional, was an Olympic medalist i believe and seemed quite informed, however I am hardly in a position to know who is right or wrong on the issue having never taking AAS or read up on it much, other than some basic stuff.

The pictures of her at the start of her career v now hints to steroids being the only way to change that much as a woman. She was already a seasoned fighter in the fght she got double knee barred wasn’t she? She looks so different there, in shape but feminine. Her jaw seems to of gotten much bigger too.
[/quote]

With regards to Fallon, I don’t even think a juiced Cyborg should even be compared to Fox. You said the Fallon’s situation is unfair. I don’t agree. Fallon has no business fighting women, and ,I’m saying this as a bisexual, and a supporter of LBGT community.

Fallon was a man for 31 years and I don’t give a shit that she had six years of hormones therapy. It doesn’t change the fact that she still has fully matured male bone structure, and that phase usually happens in our early twenties. Had she undertaken therapy before or during puberty, it would have been a totally different story. The difference between a male and a female’s bone structure is quite distinct and, no amount of hormone therapy will alter bone structure once your bone ends close. The same can be said about steroids users. I can’t tell when she began using, and, I agree, Cyborg’s facial features have definitely changed throughout the years, but she is still a WOMAN, a STRONGER woman (with or without drugs), with fully matured female bone structures, fighting other women who happen to be a bunch of CANS, lol. It ain’t her fault if there aren’t any women worth her calibre out there yet.

Watch some of the Fallon’s fights and see the difference the impact of her blows has on her opponents compared to Cyborg’s. People are moaning about Cyborg dragdolling feminine fragile girls, but it’s even worse with Fallon. And she was a man for fucking 31 years. She lied about her past when she started her fighting career and thought she could get away with beating up females. Cyborg can take all the steroid she wants – all them fighters do, and I’m sure time their cycles accordingly – but there is no way Fallon’s situation should be seen comparable to Cyborg’s, nor deemed as unfair.

Ps: Cyborg vs Fallon - Fallon to win of course. But after a long struggle.
[/quote]

I never said fallon should be able to fight women dude? I never mentioned her.
I do however think she should be allowed if she informs the other woman she is transgender and they both agree. I would be pro mixed sex fights as long as both parties consent. I do think fox has an overwhelming advantage, about the same as a woman who uses steroids, maybe even more due to things like bone density, hand size, shoulder size and explosiveness.

#33

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[/quote]

Ugh. Not even a hint of humility or remorse for not letting know her past opponents what the real deal was. Bringing science into this… well, science shows that you’re fucking wrong, Fox. Looking at her Before picture, she’s hardly changed, apart from the hair and the voice and the boobs of course. Same jaw structure. That’s what happens when you start taking hormones when you’ve fully developed as a man. They don’t change your bone structure.

She can’t even admit she lied on her licence. That’s my only problem with her. She only came out when some journo found out about her past. Let’s not forget Fox was in the army prior her sex change. So she had some knowledge of combat and must have been in top physical condition.

I’m sorry but to me it’s almost similar to Cain Velazquez deciding on a career change in the future and, returning as Caina or Vela Cains, to fight in the female Beefed division. I just can’t shake it out of my head. I hope Fox never gets the licence to fight women.

#34

[quote]sharkOnesie wrote:

I never said fallon should be able to fight women dude? I never mentioned her. [/quote]

Sorry Dude, I misread your post.

But you did mention Fallon in your first post when you stated ‘‘people are against her while a ‘‘roid’’ cyborg is allowed to beat up women’’. Hence my reply to you, stressing that a woman who has been a man for 31 years cannot be compared to a ‘‘roided’’ woman, who was born a woman, (who happened to be taking weight cutting steroids, mind you) no matter how much hormone therapy and surgery she has gone through to become a woman. Cyborg is a woman and, Fox is… a transgender of 37, with the bone structure of 31 years old man. Fucking massive difference. Can’t really compare the two, sorry.

Cyborg should be allowed to fight other women. She served her sentence and, I’m sure she learnt her lesson and won’t fuck up again. All those fighters juice at some point anyway but they’re just good at never getting caught. Reem and Chael got caught and, no one has an issue with them coming back and fighting again after their suspension. Why shall it be any different with Cyborg? Why shouldn’t she be forgiven?

Let’s cut her some slack. She’s a dedicated athlete, strong and fearless, with or without drugs.

[quote]sharkOnesie wrote:

I do however think she should be allowed if she informs the other woman she is transgender and they both agree. I would be pro mixed sex fights as long as both parties consent. I do think fox has an overwhelming advantage, about the same as a woman who uses steroids, maybe even more due to things like bone density, hand size, shoulder size and explosiveness.

[/quote]

Not really okay with it. Honestly, I think there should be a transgender division, especially for late ‘‘transitioners’’ such as Fox. I don’t agree with Fox’s advantage equalling to a woman who juices, sorry. Not even comparable. She’s a 37 yo transgender in a 31 yo guy’s body. Men develop bones density, stronger tendons and ligaments that women can’t, no matter how much weight lifting they do, and no matter how much steroids they take. In an MMA scenario, that REALLY matters.

I have no problem with the transgender women who started hormones therapy pre-puberty. I believe they should be the ones more entitled to fight women.

#35

Hey man, I can totally understand your opinion on the subject, however I think personal freedom is paramount. If I was a woman would I fight fox? no, I probably would not. Should I have the choice? Absolutely.

I feel sorry for fallon fox, she clearly has a female gender but was born with male sex and thus can’t change her gender, but can have a sex change. I wish nothing but happiness for her, however, there is no question she has an unfair advantage. In my view she must inform the opponents of her circumstances, but if both are OK with it, why force your personal beliefs on what people should or should not do on two consenting adults?

#36

[quote]sharkOnesie wrote:
Hey man, I can totally understand your opinion on the subject, however I think personal freedom is paramount. If I was a woman would I fight fox? no, I probably would not. Should I have the choice? Absolutely.

I feel sorry for fallon fox, she clearly has a female gender but was born with male sex and thus can’t change her gender, but can have a sex change. I wish nothing but happiness for her, however, there is no question she has an unfair advantage. In my view she must inform the opponents of her circumstances, but if both are OK with it, why force your personal beliefs on what people should or should not do on two consenting adults?[/quote]

My issue with Fox is that at the start of her fighting career, she lied about her situation. I don’t feel sorry for this fucking liar. This is why many people believe she joined the fighting scene only in the hope to easily obliterate the competition, knowing full well how much of an added advantage she had on her opponents. She hasn’t even apologise to the girls who were unaware of her past. All she’s good at shouting right now is, everyone is ignorant of transgender issues or fear her and all that fucking shit. Fuck her. I promise you, had she been honest before hand, I wouldn’t dislike her as I do now.

I look at her and all I see is a man wearing a fucking wig with fake boobs. I’ve seen more feminine Thai lady boys than Fox, and they look more convincing as women, because they’ve started their transition before puberty. Fox still looks like man to me, I’m sorry. She hasn’t changed at all in six years of hormone therapy. The bone structure, her jaw and her hands are fucking massive. Hormones don’t alter this after six years only. Watch her fights and see how devastating her blows are to the other girls. I’m not even that shocked when Cyborg pummel other girls but Fox is just something else. Hell, I didn’t have an issue with Gabrielle Ludwig, the transgender who joined some Junior girls basketball team. But This is MMA.

And by the way, I am a bisexual woman, and I should probably show some support to Fox but I don’t feel like it. I’ve trained and (still train occasionally) with men throughout my combat career. As a very experienced Judoka, it can be easy for me to throw, grapple, armbar or choke a man heavier than me, but when it comes to striking, that’s another story. I can take a punch (I’m a masochist by the way) but there is no denying that the force generated by a man’s punch or kick is far more superior than a woman’s. I’ve been punched – broken teeth, black eye, broken jaw and all that shit – in fights with men who didn’t feel like taking easy on me. Men are stronger than women. Period. (Fox can’t have those anyway… lol)

If some girls choose to fight her, good for them. But I’d take it is certainly under pressure to make money and what have you. I wouldn’t fight her if I were one of those girls, only because I didn’t sign up to fight a 31 years old man. I signed up to fight other women. If I wanted to fight men, I’d join some mixed division — which don’t exist in Combat tournaments, because thankfully, someone had the good sense to understand and acknowledge men and women physiology differences. Now they want to amend that just 'cos they wanna accommodate Fox and be PC? You gotta be fucking kidding me.

Sorry for the essay but I feel strongly about this.

#37

[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:
I have no problem with the transgender women who started hormones therapy pre-puberty. I believe they should be the ones more entitled to fight women.
[/quote]

I have a huge problem with the idea of anyone starting the trans-gender process before they start puberty. Starting the hormone therapy prior to puberty raises a bunch of issues both medically and legally in my mind.

RE: Fox vs Chris Cyborg

I don’t for one second think Fox’s advantages in size and strength could close the gulf in skill. She would only come in a few pounds heavier than Chris. That wouldn’t be nearly enough. I have to ask, how heavy were the guys that busted you up and what was their skill relative to yours? Because I having watched a bit of Fox tape I think this would be like putting you in the ring with a guy 10 pounds heavier, but with a training history measured in weeks. I would throw my money on you. No questions.

RE: Fox in general

Depending on what states he/she fought in she may have still been a he in the eyes of the law, and that is a serious problem to face. Some of the defensiveness may be an attempt to get out ahead of what could be a banning or even criminal charges.

I have to admit that a man(at least physically) who makes the decision to become a woman, and THAN immediately starts training to punch women in the face is making interesting choices. That is just not something you see every day. I mean, you don’t see Chaz Bono trying to pick fights.

Regards,

Robert A

#38

[quote]Robert A wrote:
I have to admit that a man(at least physically) who makes the decision to become a woman, and THAN immediately starts training to punch women in the face is making interesting choices. That is just not something you see every day. I mean, you don’t see Chaz Bono trying to pick fights.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

Hahaha! Doing what it takes to follow his dream of punching women in the face without repercussions. Serious dedication that.

#39

[quote]Khaine wrote:

[quote]Robert A wrote:
I have to admit that a man(at least physically) who makes the decision to become a woman, and THAN immediately starts training to punch women in the face is making interesting choices. That is just not something you see every day. I mean, you don’t see Chaz Bono trying to pick fights.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

Hahaha! Doing what it takes to follow his dream of punching women in the face without repercussions. Serious dedication that.[/quote]

Yeah I was thinking that same thing. So you identify as a female and go through all that to become one. Then you flip it on its head and won’t to participate in a very masculine sport. Only now you get to fight women. It is a strange set of circumstances.

#40

[quote]on edge wrote:
I love opportunities to show off my superior skills at assessing athletes even in sports I have no expertise in. [/quote]

Solid fucking gold right here.
sums up this whole site.