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W1-6 Enanthate W 7-8 Propionate...

I’ve been considering a doing a cycle, and had it all planned out. Then I started reading about rest/stasis & taper protocol. I thought that the theory behind stasis/taper was worth considering, but the problem I see with it is that there is a prolonged suppression of natural output of T, as addressed by Bill Roberts. Bill also often advocates selecting a cycle length that is aligned with your goals. My goals a clearly to recover from the cycle fast, so a shorter cycle seems the way to go. So I thought, why not use a fast acting test at the end of the cycle so that I still get the benefits of a full dose of testosterone right up to the end of my cycle, but have the drug clear my system rapidly to begin recovery.

  1. Would a short using a long ester of testosterone (enanthate, cypionate, etc.) for weeks 1-6, ending with a fast acting testosterone like propionate for weeks 7-8 accomplish this goal? In your opinion, is something like this worth trying (for a first cycle)?

  2. If so, is 6 weeks of test enth long enough to see appreciable results?

  3. Does anyone have a protocol for this type of cycle? I imagine you would have to monkey with the dosages to get a stable level of testosterone (i.e. the test enth is still in the system so maybe take a week off completely or just use a progressively increasing dosage over the two weeks to adjust for the declining test enth).

  4. For a first time user would a 12 week cycle of test enth be better?

Thanks in advance.

Just found this in case anyone is interested:
elitefitness.com/forum/anabolic-steroids/8wk-cycle-finished-review-stats-580881.html

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[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
…Why overcomplicate things?

BBB[/quote]

…cause I’m a tinkerin fool :wink: Thanks for the reply Bushy. My logic was such that prop would clear the system fast and get you back to baseline, whereas enth will linger and keep you surpressed. Why not just run prop the whole time? Enth injections are less often.

What I am also really interested to get your input on is if the idea of “longer cycles (i.e. 12 weeks) to retain gains” holds any weight, or if a short cycle for faster recovery is a better approach.

I also wonder if anyone has tried this or if it just sounds crazy.

Also, I would theorize that the 2-3 weeks of prop approach could be used at the end of a longer, say 10 week enth cycle. After say two days after the last injection, blood levels would be near baseline. A stasis/taper protocol could be effectively used at this point (esp if HCG was used on cycle).

What are your thoughts on this?

As a Bill Roberts disciple, I like your plan as laid out. It utilizes Bill’s recommendation to minimize required recovery time while maximizing the time when your serum test is at a decidedly beneficial level.

W1-6: Test E (Frontloaded on 1st inject)
W7-8 or W7-9: Test prop (While Test E clears)
W1-8 (or 9): AI (Adex or Letro depending on test dosage)

W10: Nolva 20mg/d (Day1 only 140mg Nolva frontload) N.B.: Start PCT 2-3 days after last Prop inject)

You can continue low dose Adex (or letro) at about 0.5mg/w (Adex dosage - I am not sure of Letro dosage) divided into EOD to keep E2 at low normal and maximize free test level.

Optional: hCG (250iu EOD) for last 3-4 weeks of cycle to get testes ready to produce once again.

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[quote]Dynamo Hum wrote:
As a Bill Roberts disciple, I like your plan as laid out. It utilizes Bill’s recommendation to minimize required recovery time while maximizing the time when your serum test is at a decidedly beneficial level.

W1-6: Test E (Frontloaded on 1st inject)
W7-8 or W7-9: Test prop (While Test E clears)
W1-8 (or 9): AI (Adex or Letro depending on test dosage)

W10-13: Nolva 20mg/d (Day1 only 140mg Nolva frontload) N.B.: Start PCT 2-3 days after last Prop inject)

You can continue low dose Adex (or letro) at about 0.5mg/w divided into EOD to keep E2 at low normal and maximize free test level.

Optional: hCG (250iu EOD) for last 3-4 weeks of cycle to get testes ready to produce once again.[/quote]

Sweet. Thanks for the input Dynamo. I just have to figure out the optimal dosage for the transition from enth to prop. That’s the tricky part that will seem to make this whole thing key.

I would continue with same dosage test prop as used with test enth.

OP I think you would be much better off with a 6wker of Test Prop and and oral, like BBB mentioned. I absolutely love the results of the shorter cycles, and suffer no real libido or depression issues when coming off, like I do from longer cycles.

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
I don’t personally think that longer cycles = better retention of gains.

What does = better retention (assuming nutrition, rest and training to be equal in all cases) is speed or smoothness of return to normal hormonal function.

With a short cycle, and assuming you are not one of those unlucky people who seem to possess a ‘fragile’ HPTA, a SERM PCT is probably fine for a quick return to previous homeostasis.

But, for longer cycles (because longer cycles equals longer return to normal function), it is my strong belief that a stasis taper approach gives the best results because it offeres a ‘seamless’ return to normal HPTA function, without the fluctuations in cortisol, estrogen, etc that can quickly rob you of some of your cycle gains.

If I had my time again, I would use 6 week cycles of short acting gear with orals.

I personally think the stasis taper protocol is a fine piece of kit -in practice even if not in theory, as some authors protest - for long cycles (10 weeks or more). However given the choice, I would never do a long cycle. 12 week cycles are undoubtedly the ‘recommended norm’ (I don’t know why) and I strongly believe that a SERM PCT is not up to the job - for a lot of people, though some will do OK on it.

Er, does that answer your question or have I missed the point, lol?

BBB[/quote]

Thanks Bushy. So would you ever opt for a longer cycle, or do you do stick to shorter cycles now?

[quote]soontobeIFBB wrote:
OP I think you would be much better off with a 6wker of Test Prop and and oral, like BBB mentioned. I absolutely love the results of the shorter cycles, and suffer no real libido or depression issues when coming off, like I do from longer cycles. [/quote]

Thanks soon to be. I’ll prob try something along these lines on round 2, but who knows - I’m not going on for a few more weeks.

Another alternative is to do the above, but substitute dbol for the proposed prop. dbol clears very quickly and you can start PCT the next day after using dbol. Yo can start the dbol a little earlier - maybe during the last week of test e.

That’s actually what I intend to do. In my case, I am starting dbol on the last 2 weeks of a 6 week frontloaded test e run and continuing the dbol for 2 weeks after as the test e clears. Then I will start a SERM PCT.

Your approach is good. I prefer it to simply running the enanthate for the 8 weeks but it is one of those things that for user convenience, availability, and other reasons I’ve never pushed on anyone.

The advantage is that you’re able to keep levels high up almost right to (just a few days away from) the point where levels are allowing recovery, rather than having more extended time with declining levels yet still no hope of recovery beginning.

However, that latter disadvantage can be largely or entirely corrected for by compensating with increased use of orals.

I prefer counting cycle length according to time suppressed. So for an 8 week (by this standard) cycle with enanthate, depending on the dose used the last injection might be at the end of week 6. It can still be 8 weeks of full effectiveness with the compensating-with-orals appoach.

With propionate the same cycle length – in terms of time at suppressive levels – can maintain the desired T levels for considerably longer before having to discontinue.

But inasmuch as enanthate is cheaper and more convenient, doing a mixed approach with enanthate for the beginning and middle and propionate for the end can be preferred for those reasons over using propionate throughout.

(Note: some would probably choose to compare injecting enanthate for 8 weeks to injecting propionate for 8 weeks but this is not an equal comparison, because time of being suppressed is considerably longer in the first case, if a frontload is used then the total injected amount is also greater in the first case, etc. If you want to compare injecting 8 weeks of enanthate to something, it should be to injecting say 9.5 weeks of propionate.)

[quote]Dynamo Hum wrote:
Another alternative is to do the above, but substitute dbol for the proposed prop. dbol clears very quickly and you can start PCT the next day after using dbol. Yo can start the dbol a little earlier - maybe during the last week of test e.

That’s actually what I intend to do. In my case, I am starting dbol on the last 2 weeks of a 6 week frontloaded test e run and continuing the dbol for 2 weeks after as the test e clears. Then I will start a SERM PCT.[/quote]

That’s great man! Sounds like a good cycle to me. You mind posting more details. Maybe Bill and others can have a look at it.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Your approach is good. I prefer it to simply running the enanthate for the 8 weeks but it is one of those things that for user convenience, availability, and other reasons I’ve never pushed on anyone.

The advantage is that you’re able to keep levels high up almost right to (just a few days away from) the point where levels are allowing recovery, rather than having more extended time with declining levels yet still no hope of recovery beginning.

However, that latter disadvantage can be largely or entirely corrected for by compensating with increased use of orals.

I prefer counting cycle length according to time suppressed. So for an 8 week (by this standard) cycle with enanthate, depending on the dose used the last injection might be at the end of week 6. It can still be 8 weeks of full effectiveness with the compensating-with-orals appoach.

With propionate the same cycle length – in terms of time at suppressive levels – can maintain the desired T levels for considerably longer before having to discontinue.

But inasmuch as enanthate is cheaper and more convenient, doing a mixed approach with enanthate for the beginning and middle and propionate for the end can be preferred for those reasons over using propionate throughout.

(Note: some would probably choose to compare injecting enanthate for 8 weeks to injecting propionate for 8 weeks but this is not an equal comparison, because time of being suppressed is considerably longer in the first case, if a frontload is used then the total injected amount is also greater in the first case, etc. If you want to compare injecting 8 weeks of enanthate to something, it should be to injecting say 9.5 weeks of propionate.)

[/quote]

Brilliant Bill. I mean intuitively I knew this, but you spelled it out really well. Your advice sounds really solid. I probably will change my cycle due to your advice.

FYI: I know the post is asks about prop, but I probably will use enth and orals now. I’m thinking some combo of test enanthate, finishing with dbol. I also have proviron on hand, arimidex, and nolva.

How does this front loaded test enth cycle sound?

Enth (W1-6 ~900mg first injection then 250mg E3D),
Proviron (W1-8 25mg 2X/D)
DBol (W5-8 10mg 3X/D)
Arim (W3-8 .25mg/D)
Nolva (W9-12 40/40/20/20)

Run the dbol longer so it can work with the test for a few weeks. If your liver is currently healthy 6 weeks of dbol at 30mg/d wont be a problem. Run liver support as well.

Or don’t lol. That’s just what I would do because I love dbol.

Haha. Thanks Bonez. Will consider adding another week of Dbol.

So recovery on this cycle would be 8-12 weeks?

[quote]BulletproofTiger wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
Your approach is good. I prefer it to simply running the enanthate for the 8 weeks but it is one of those things that for user convenience, availability, and other reasons I’ve never pushed on anyone.

The advantage is that you’re able to keep levels high up almost right to (just a few days away from) the point where levels are allowing recovery, rather than having more extended time with declining levels yet still no hope of recovery beginning.

However, that latter disadvantage can be largely or entirely corrected for by compensating with increased use of orals.

I prefer counting cycle length according to time suppressed. So for an 8 week (by this standard) cycle with enanthate, depending on the dose used the last injection might be at the end of week 6. It can still be 8 weeks of full effectiveness with the compensating-with-orals appoach.

With propionate the same cycle length – in terms of time at suppressive levels – can maintain the desired T levels for considerably longer before having to discontinue.

But inasmuch as enanthate is cheaper and more convenient, doing a mixed approach with enanthate for the beginning and middle and propionate for the end can be preferred for those reasons over using propionate throughout.

(Note: some would probably choose to compare injecting enanthate for 8 weeks to injecting propionate for 8 weeks but this is not an equal comparison, because time of being suppressed is considerably longer in the first case, if a frontload is used then the total injected amount is also greater in the first case, etc. If you want to compare injecting 8 weeks of enanthate to something, it should be to injecting say 9.5 weeks of propionate.)

Brilliant Bill. I mean intuitively I knew this, but you spelled it out really well. Your advice sounds really solid. I probably will change my cycle due to your advice.

FYI: I know the post is asks about prop, but I probably will use enth and orals now. I’m thinking some combo of test enanthate, finishing with dbol. I also have proviron on hand, arimidex, and nolva.

How does this front loaded test enth cycle sound?

Enth (W1-6 ~900mg first injection then 250mg E3D),
Proviron (W1-8 25mg 2X/D)
DBol (W5-8 10mg 3X/D)
Arim (W3-8 .25mg/D)
Nolva (W9-12 40/40/20/20)

[/quote]

That looks great to me. Some small optimizations:

  1. Enanthate frontload on 1st inject: 670 mg not 900 mg

Frontload = (weekly mg * half life / days per week) + interval dose

Your case: (583 * 5 / 7) + 250 = 670mg

  1. Adex: I would raise the amount to around 0.5mg/d while on Enanthate & dbol. From experience E2 buildup and sensitive nipples are greater from this combo but can be effectively managed with the appropriate dose of AI.

  2. Nolva: You might want to wait 3 Test E half lives before starting. 1st half life 291mg serum level remaining, 2nd half life 145.5mg serum level remaining, 3rd half life 72.75mg serum level remaining. Half life for our purposes is 5 days so wait 15-16 days before starting Nolva.

  3. Nolva frontload: 140mg on day1 in split doses throughout day (I forgot to mention that in prior post). This will assure good absorption.

  4. Nolva: If frontloaded, it is not necessary to do 40/40/20/20 instead do 20/20/20/20 since blood level will be effective from day 1.

(Credit to Bill Roberts as my info was gleaned from his prolific writing)

[quote]BulletproofTiger wrote:
I’ve been considering a doing a cycle, and had it all planned out. Then I started reading about rest/stasis & taper protocol. I thought that the theory behind stasis/taper was worth considering, but the problem I see with it is that there is a prolonged suppression of natural output of T, as addressed by Bill Roberts. Bill also often advocates selecting a cycle length that is aligned with your goals. My goals a clearly to recover from the cycle fast, so a shorter cycle seems the way to go. So I thought, why not use a fast acting test at the end of the cycle so that I still get the benefits of a full dose of testosterone right up to the end of my cycle, but have the drug clear my system rapidly to begin recovery.

  1. Would a short using a long ester of testosterone (enanthate, cypionate, etc.) for weeks 1-6, ending with a fast acting testosterone like propionate for weeks 7-8 accomplish this goal? In your opinion, is something like this worth trying (for a first cycle)?[/quote]

I do. i like it, you COULD just use prop the whole length, but if not, you’d just have to make sure the levels of the longer esters are at non supressive levels by the end of the prop period and you are good to go.[quote]

  1. If so, is 6 weeks of test enth long enough to see appreciable results?[quote]

With a frontload definitely, without a FL I got appreciable results from cyp in 7 weeks, so… it massively depends on dosage I reckon, and availability.[/quote]

  1. Does anyone have a protocol for this type of cycle? I imagine you would have to monkey with the dosages to get a stable level of testosterone (i.e. the test enth is still in the system so maybe take a week off completely or just use a progressively increasing dosage over the two weeks to adjust for the declining test enth).[quote]

Look at the half lives of test E and P and go from there…(about 5 and 2) look at the active (or suppressive life of enanthate and that will be needed…(about 3 if i am reading my data correctly). I’d suggest using 3 weeks at the end of the cycle on prop… but without knowing proper dosages desired (insert PM here!) it is not possible for me to say other than giving an example.[/quote]

  1. For a first time user would a 12 week cycle of test enth be better?[quote]

IMO a frontloaded 6 week cycle would be best. Or 8, or even 10. The longer the suppression the harder the recovery.
I been using AAS on and off many years and reading alot in that time, and i have finally come to the reasoning that higher dose frontloaded shorter cycles are the way to go and will form part of my blast/cruise schedule.[/quote]

Thanks in advance.[/quote]

Hope it helps its JMO

JJ