T Nation

Vonko1988 TRT Log

Ok so if my total t is 1200 and e2 is 70 isnt that ratio good?

I don’t have an answer to that, no one has.
I use as my reference studies done on young men with a good endocrine system.

As an example, let’s follow the Defy method for a second. You get the average Joe young guy in his early 20s with a total T of 700. His free T calculated with TruT on a standard SHBG of 25 and a standard albumin of 4.3.
What you get is a free T of 25. An E2 of 25 is pretty common in young guys of that age.

So I think they are not far after all.
The problem is to achieve that ratio without touching AIs and HCG that are other variables hard to control.

Im very very skeptical about many things written in excel male. They are not evidence based but bro science. Dr Keith Nichols has debunked many of them in his videos, especially his latest ones. And he is debunking them with studies and medical literature, not opinions and anecdotal experience. He and dr Scot Howell are working actively now to get the TRT research and medical documentation to a whole new level

In all interventional studies done so far showing benefits from TRT no harm has been shown with total t levels up to 1500 and no harm has been shown with any high level of estradiol associated with such total t levels. In fact high levels of estradiol are showing only benefits and @dbossa can concur on that. This is also the life’s work of dr Neil Rouzier.

So based on all that evidence I see no reason to be afraid of my over the range levels of estradiol even all that evidence lets me to believe I should be happy with this estradiol levels and not chase any ratio or micromanagement. AIs are not even in my thought process regarding my protocol and never have I considered using them.

My personal evidence also points high e2 levels are not the reason for my sleep issue due to the simple fact the sleep issue started when my e2 was way way lower and rising it didnt change the problem. Even for a while initially when I started HCG and e2 jumped rapidly I got my sleep better for a while but them the problem came back.

Try the steps you said and we’ll see how you will feel. But our sleep situation is similar and I can tell you I’ve already did what you are trying. I hope it’s gonna work for you though.

Which ester have you used and which are you using now?
How are your levels?

Check in here, last post.

EDIT: I forgot to post the link

Did you get magnesium glycinate?
Any improvement?

Yes I received it take only 250mg and there is a huge improvement, but lets see how long it will last. I think after my body is adjusted to the supplement the shit will start again. Im now trying to get the enanthate because the border is closed and things are a bid more complicated

These days Im sleeping like a baby, 8 hours per day but during the day I am also tired and sleepy and feel like not doing anything

I dont know is it because Im working from home one week already or I got the COVID and go through it some very light form(maybe too good do be true) or some other reason

Do you have any update?
Did you switch to enanthate or did you just introduce 250mg of magnesium glycinate in the morning?

If you feel tired all day and it’s because of magnesium, maybe it’s better to take it at night.

I’ve also found this study that adds to what I was saying in your log:

Exogenous testosterone has been found to increase cortisol and stress response to an external stimulus. But the author concluded is not sure if it’s the result of testosterone itself or of the aromatization to E2:

Second, although we provide evidence of testosterone’s direct effects on stress responses, the broader gonadal endocrine system should continue to be explored with regards to stress responses. For example, some of testosterone’s effects within the central nervous system depend on local conversion to estrogen metabolites such as estradiol (Naftolin, 1994). Further, estradiol administered to men has been shown to increase HPA-axis responses to stress (Kirschbaum et al., 1996). Thus the effects reported here may depend on estradiol conversion, but future research must rigorously test this dependency in humans by blocking testosterone conversion to estradiol or antagonizing estrogen receptors.

So hear me out. Stop using HCG for 2 weeks. If nothing changes get back on it. Its not going to cause permanent anything. Just try it. Be adventurous. Before Covid19 hit our shores, I went on a trip to Costa Rica and didnt use HCG for 3 weeks. Nothing odd happened. Came back home and got back on HCG. Balls swole up again and I feel fine. Who knows maybe you will see a difference. Have fun. Nothing is permanent.


@middleages The last 2-3 weeks I feel shitty. But sleep is good, Im taking 250mg magnesium glycinate before bed. The early morning wake ups are gone @appassionato

I feel shitty in a sense of not optimized and like many of my low t symptoms came back to some extend or another. Possible reasons:

5-6 weeks ago I reduced my dose from 22.5mg to 20mg but this is including the bubble. I did that for terms of sleep resolution. Is it possible so little decrease to affect me?

There was a point I was taking 6000mg of Vitamin C at some point and I felt really tired then, but I stopped last week and things improved.

Still Im a bit tired, a bit unmotivated, libido is worse, and a bit depression start to crawl back. Im not sure is it like before TRT or something in the middle. But I feel a bit dull

I explore several options:

  1. For some reason TRT stopped working so good
  2. The stress of the last weeks takes me down like many other people. Danny Bossa made a special video about that
  3. The small decrease in dosage from 22.5 to 20
  4. My T has deteriorated in the bottle for some reason, maybe exposing it on the light in the room or whatever

I will run blood work the next two days. I hope the lab offers home visit, I dont wanna get COVID on top of all(provided I dont already have it)

I would also explore stopping HCG at some point for a while but not yet

Are you working out at all? I know gyms are closed but are you getting in some cardio? I felt like that in the beginning. But Im on Test C. Its hard to stay motivated while not doing much but staying home. Ive been organizing my garage and have been allowing myself 2 beers EOD. Its either that or sit and watch movies. So life itself sucks. Get a proper workout routine at home, and organize your domicile. Contact old friends over the phone, and make plans to see them once the world is in better shape. My city is shutdown for the most part, the news are depressing, and life is on pause. These things take a toll on our mental health. So be proactive and be strong.

17.5 mg of testosterone reduction weekly shouldn’t be enough to make you hypogonadal again.
Did you change something in your supplementation regime? As personal experience, supplements are either making me feel junk or don’t provide any benefit.
I just take vitamins and minerals I have been proven to be deficient. Many companies loads their supplements with fillers, don’t really put what they declare on the label and so on.

Are you still taking HCG? Did you switch to enanthate?

Yes I understand all of that, and I get that this affects me for sure. Im worried what will happen to me economically, whether I will survive this virus and how it will affect me, what will happen with my parents and so on.

But still there is more to that. I fee many of my pre TRT symptoms.

I manage to workout a bit, first week was going to UGL gym, second week going on street fitness before they put 2500 euro fine for that, this week going street fitness night time at a very dark and hidden place and I ordered training bands for home.

I dont think that changing in workout regimen would affect me mentally. Ive never been the guy who loves working out, I do it by duty mostly because I have to.

I hope I soon find out whats the issue because in this hard times I need all my energy and focus

I havent switched to enanthate because they closed the border just when I planned to. Except this 2.5mg reduction no other change in TRT regimen.

I added some supplements due to the epidemic yes - Inincreased Vitamin C to 6g for a few days, started to feel way crappier even than now and cut it back to 1 gr. I added some garlic oil capsules, enzymes for diggestion and increased magnesium with 200mg

Now I will stop all supplements for a few days. I will continue take only my fish oil that Ive taken aince started TRT

Are you still taking caber? I’d really try dropping that and seeing what happens if I was you. Insomnia is pretty common on it and I don’t recall your prolactin being super high but maybe I’m forgetting

Yes I take it for now I will not touch it. I no longer have insomnia just most of my low t stuff returned

I had issues with caber only the first 1-2 months

I would keep only vitamin C with your TRT for a while and, when you will feel better, you can add back in one supplement at a time.

Are you still taking HCG? If you dropped it, that would explain why you started feeling your hypogonadal symptoms coming back.
Probably you should compensate with a higher dose of T the lack of HCG, but it’s wiser to do labs first.