Lion, of COURSE you’re “outta here” so that you can go argue with your TV, because (once again) you just LOST the debate. I refer you to my previous point, which is that you CLAIM to be FOR a military response by the U.S. to the 9/11 attacks, yet you continue to argue AGAINST virtually every single aspect of our war against the Taliban and Al-Qaeda. Yes, oh Educated One, I too am aware of the fact that Afghanistan is a country filled with a multitude of tribes and factions, and that people’s loyalties are usually more to their own tribe/faction than to the Afghan nation-state itself. I.E., if someone liked the Taliban’s style of rule and had therefore been a member of the Taliban for their whole life, but who didn’t necessarily want anything to do with killing civilians in America, you could make the claim that they “innocently” got caught up in all of this. (Although if you’re familiar with the Taliban’s style of rule – despicable treatment of women, public executions for minor infractions, beating people with reeds in the streets – I would argue that anyone who was FOR that and actively supported it is not really worthy of drawing another breath anyway. But that’s another discussion). The FACT is that the Taliban willingly, openly and undeniably harbored, supported and WELCOMED Osama Bin Laden and his Al-Qaeda network into their country, and ALLLOWED them to set up shop (a very LARGE shop) there. Both the Clinton and G.W. Bush administrations HAD made numerous attempts, at the diplomatic level, to convince the Taliban to hand over Bin Laden and his thugs. THE TALIBAN REFUSED. THE TALIBAN LEADERSHIP SAID THAT HE WAS A “WELCOMED GUEST.” EVEN AFTER SEPTEMBER 11TH. THIS makes the Taliban, and all those who fight for them, INCREDIBLY worthy targets for the U.S. And, by the way, don’t think for a moment that those who are members of and fight for the Taliban don’t support their extremist, perversion-of-Islam, friends-with-Al-Qaeda views, because the vast, VAST majority of the Taliban ARE members of the Taliban for that very reason.
Now, on to another one of your glaring misunderstandings of world issues – the use of the U.S. military. The military IS intended SOLELY to KILL PEOPLE and BREAK THINGS. It is an unfortunate means to and end, whatever that end may be at the time. THANK YOU for bringing up the issue of “peacekeepers.” Clinton and Albright are DEPLORED in the military community for their love of the idea of using U.S. FIGHTING forces to stand on a fucking line between two sides who have hated one another for centuries, with rules of engagement so strict they’d have to ask permission to pee, just WAITING for some yahoo from either side to take a good shot at their heads (while often under the “leadership” of a foreign commander). BRILLIANT fucking use of a fighting force that is meant to DEFEND our country and our allies from attack and to ATTACK those who are our enemies. The U.S. Marines in Beirut learned in the early '80’s why this is sheer fucking stupidity. A few U.S. marines and about 23 Pakistani soldiers learned why this is sheer fucking stupidity in Somalia in '92 or '93 (and no, I’m not talking about the “Black Hawk Down” episode, which came later – THAT was not a peacekeeping operation). If no U.S. casualties have yet been taken in the Balkans, that is out of PURE luck, and I wouldn’t count my chickens before they’re hatched if I were you.
All of which brings us back to an issue which was tons of fun to educate you about in a thread we were involved in a few months back – EVIL. That nice, nebulous, controversial term which you seem never to be willing to use to label ANYONE. If I recall correctly, I think you even argued that the 9/11 HIJACKERS weren’t evil!!? (And that, by the way, is where you LOST THAT argument and the rest of the forum pretty much laughed/sneered at you like one would a bee buzzing around one’s head). The Taliban, who took part in public executions in SOCCER stadiums (by hanging, by gunshot, by mutilation), as well as public amputation and horrendous oppression of women; Al-Qaeda, who INTENTIONALLY massacre innocent CIVILIANS in order to try to change U.S. foreign policy (short-term goal), destroy the U.S. and spread fundamentalist, Wahhabi-ist Islam throughout the world (long-term goal); and the similar group of terrorists spearheaded by Omar Saed in Pakistan, who kidnapped Daniel Pearl because he was a Jew and an American, then BEHEADED him on video for all the world to see, are all PERFECT examples of EVIL. Pure and simple. I KNOW you don’t like it when things are pure and simple, and you’d like to argue that it’s all much more complicated than that, and that everyone else is too small-minded to see the fine nuances which only someone of your substantial intellect can truly grasp, but whatever side issues or back-stories may surround these groups, it DOESN’T CHANGE the FACT – THEY’RE EVIL!!! Just like people who have never been in combat don’t understand how terrible and gory and painful and awful it is, people who have only heard about, but have never personally WITNESSED, things as awful as people JUMPING from the high floors of the WTC so as to avoid being burned alive (a good friend of mine witnessed it firsthand, and it shook him up pretty good) or an innocent guy being BEHEADED by some fucking scumbags in Pakistan, perhaps it WOULD educate the American public and the world, in an unpleasant if productive way, to just WHAT these people are really all about. I’m not exactly sure I’m willing to go so far as to advocate broadcasting it on TV, but the idea does have its merits. You want to talk about critical thought? Sure, I think the Bush administration (and this country historically) have done some bad/wrong/dumb things, and I think that naming a bill the “Patriot Act” is downright cheesy. Does this government (or any other, for that matter) go on a “propaganda” campaign to convince the public that it’s actions are justified when it’s going to war? Sure. Only in this case, they didn’t need to try very hard – it’s obvious. Anything “propaganda” beyond just looking at what happened on 9/11 is just reinforcing the fucking point. You, however, claim to be all for our military actions in Afghanistan – RIGHT!!! 
i ws born in belfast, but ive spent most of my life in durham - totally gotta agree about the italians, they dont seem to have evolved a society with sportsmanship, so much as gamesmanship. I guess thats one of the nice things about UK and US - ive never studied the devpment of sport through US history, but ive got a vauge knowledge of how it happened in the UK, and the ‘fairplay’ ethic (as such) doesnt seem to exist in a significant amount of countries. (Obviously, many countries have honour ethics, which i think are pretty cool too…)