T Nation

Video: Girls Lifting Session

[quote]derek wrote:

Now, just throwing this out there; does anyone remember or read about round-back lifting from the old-days?

I’ll bet watching someone lift and load the Atlas Stones would cause a heart attack with some of you. Nevermind a 700-800 lb tire flip. And forget watching guys like Steve Jeck lift actual stones in his videos.

Anyone ever see a top ranked powerlifter deadlift a PR with a perfect arch? Me either.

How many filled 15 gallon kegs have been cleaned and pressed with whatever “textbook” form might be?

Anyone have the Max Effort Lower vids from Westside? If so, go back and check out the good mornings performed with a rounded back.

While excellent form is always a goal, I’d like to think that most of us wont instantly crumble the moment our form strays from “perfect”. [/quote]

Your argument for bad form does not make sense whatsoever. These girls are in it for the looks and not to become good at powerlifting or strongman stuff.

And if you are into powerlifting, it is not a question IF you get hurt but WHEN.

[quote]derek wrote:

  1. Deads could’ve/should’ve been a lot lighter to ensure hips don’t rise so early in the lift.

  2. I’d say 80% of those squats were better than 99% of the few people that actually USE the squat rack for squats. I saw the tail-under thing though, that makes me cringe. The depth was pretty good on the majority of reps but the arch MUST be maintained.

  3. Chins could’ve been better as in using a full, dead hang with no swinging or leg raises but again, I can’t see too many injuries stemming from those things and still much better than most males at the gym could pull off.

Now, just throwing this out there; does anyone remember or read about round-back lifting from the old-days?

I’ll bet watching someone lift and load the Atlas Stones would cause a heart attack with some of you. Nevermind a 700-800 lb tire flip. And forget watching guys like Steve Jeck lift actual stones in his videos.

Anyone ever see a top ranked powerlifter deadlift a PR with a perfect arch? Me either.

How many filled 15 gallon kegs have been cleaned and pressed with whatever “textbook” form might be?

Anyone have the Max Effort Lower vids from Westside? If so, go back and check out the good mornings performed with a rounded back.

While excellent form is always a goal, I’d like to think that most of us wont instantly crumble the moment our form strays from “perfect”. [/quote]

Five stars on that response! You are correct in that the weight isn’t “too heavy” so the risk of injury is very low. The girls are all reaching there goals.

love the comment on the powerlifting deadlifts

below is a video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MepMDqjz8Es

[quote]kaeosali wrote:

Five stars on that response! You are correct in that the weight isn’t “too heavy” so the risk of injury is very low. The girls are all reaching there goals.
[/quote]

Excuses for lousy form just suck. The truth is they may not be lifting heavy, but they are lifting close to their max effort and often doing it with poor form, recipe for disaster. If you are weak enough, benching 50 pounds with shitty form can be just as hard on the body as a strong guy benching 500 pounds with shitty form. It is all relative.

Plenty of people can use shitty form and seemingly not get injured or pay any consequences for a period of time. It still isn’t a valid reason for not paying enough attention to it.

I’ve used clusters with beginners just to ensure technical perfection of every rep while still using some moderate loads. It has worked really well for me and the risk of injury due to bad form is greatly reduced. I would hope others might be open to doing the same with their clients…

I hope the video of “professional” deadlifters wasn’t to deomnstrate the variability of form on the exercise. These lifters have structural integrity from years fo training. They have the basic strength needed to even hold the positions they do while lifting huge loads. This is not the same for housewives who train to fit into clothes better…

[quote]chris666 wrote:

Your argument for bad form does not make sense whatsoever. These girls are in it for the looks and not to become good at powerlifting or strongman stuff.

And if you are into powerlifting, it is not a question IF you get hurt but WHEN.
[/quote]

No, your fisrt comment about what I wrote makes no sense whatsoever.

Where exactly did I argue FOR bad form? Words mean things so you need to use the correct ones when you accuse people of things.

And I’d like to hear the interview you conducted with these girls where you asked them about thier future goals. Oh, you didn’t?

The point I was making is that there’s not a fucking person on this site that uses perfect form all the time, every set and every rep. No one.

I had a 42 y/o female (in it for the looks of course) curling a 55-60lb (I forget now) barbell. This douche sat and watched and said something to us along the lines of “Shouldn’t she be standing perfectly still, with no movement in the upper body at all?”. My response was “Well if you had almost half your bodyweight in your hands and were curling it in an arc away from your body, do you think you could remain motionless?”. He just stared at me pondering the question I asked him. Of course I had to inform him that "That’s the type of attitude that keeps you benching 25lbs dumbbells (he really was).

We haven’t talked since.

[quote]mrodock wrote:

Excuses for lousy form just suck. The truth is they may not be lifting heavy, but they are lifting close to their max effort and often doing it with poor form, recipe for disaster. If you are weak enough, benching 50 pounds with shitty form can be just as hard on the body as a strong guy benching 500 pounds with shitty form. It is all relative.

Plenty of people can use shitty form and seemingly not get injured or pay any consequences for a period of time. It still isn’t a valid reason for not paying enough attention to it.[/quote]

Despite what I wrote being misconstrued, I can’t disagree with this statement.

[quote]derek wrote:
chris666 wrote:

Your argument for bad form does not make sense whatsoever. These girls are in it for the looks and not to become good at powerlifting or strongman stuff.

And if you are into powerlifting, it is not a question IF you get hurt but WHEN.

No, your fisrt comment about what I wrote makes no sense whatsoever.

Where exactly did I argue FOR bad form? Words mean things so you need to use the correct ones when you accuse people of things.

And I’d like to hear the interview you conducted with these girls where you asked them about thier future goals. Oh, you didn’t?
[/quote]
He said his clients are NOT ATHLETES.

There is a difference between not so perfect form (e.g. leaning forward a tad too much) and the absolutely horrible form of some of the girls in the squat and DL. If you as a trainer see the form of your client break down in the squat or DL like that, you terminate the set.

[quote]
I had a 42 y/o female (in it for the looks of course) curling a 55-60lb (I forget now) barbell. This douche sat and watched and said something to us along the lines of “Shouldn’t she be standing perfectly still, with no movement in the upper body at all?”. My response was “Well if you had almost half your bodyweight in your hands and were curling it in an arc away from your body, do you think you could remain motionless?”. He just stared at me pondering the question I asked him. Of course I had to inform him that "That’s the type of attitude that keeps you benching 25lbs dumbbells (he really was).

We haven’t talked since. [/quote]

Can you see a difference in cheating on curls and lower back rounding in the squat as far as potential for injury is concerned?

I’ll agree that some of the form isn’t textbook perfect, but I’ll have to admit that it’s better than the technique that most of the “äverage” guys use when they’re in the gym.

'From working with women’s teams from several different sports, it’s obvious to me that they are all classed as “novice” lifters. Most female novice lifters have the same mechanical problems (tail tucking under on squat, and back rounding on DL).
Females doing chin-ups at all is great.

Chin-ups weren’t that bad. I’ve seen guys do lot worse and think they were king shit.

Compare these girl’s benching with the LSU football training video that’s out. LSU should be ashamed to post that on the internet.

At least these girls aren’t playing around with pink DBs. Just keep on them about using proper technique. As they get stronger, most of the errors will clear up. You’re doing a great job so far. Yes form does beak down when getting close to a max effort, and girls like pushing the limit just as much as guys.

Most guys on this forum wouldn’t have a clue about training your garden variety female (non-athlete).

TNT

[quote]TNT-CDN wrote:
I’ll agree that some of the form isn’t textbook perfect, but I’ll have to admit that it’s better than the technique that most of the “äverage” guys use when they’re in the gym.

'From working with women’s teams from several different sports, it’s obvious to me that they are all classed as “novice” lifters. Most female novice lifters have the same mechanical problems (tail tucking under on squat, and back rounding on DL).
Females doing chin-ups at all is great.

Chin-ups weren’t that bad. I’ve seen guys do lot worse and think they were king shit.

Compare these girl’s benching with the LSU football training video that’s out. LSU should be ashamed to post that on the internet.

At least these girls aren’t playing around with pink DBs. Just keep on them about using proper technique. As they get stronger, most of the errors will clear up. You’re doing a great job so far. Yes form does beak down when getting close to a max effort, and girls like pushing the limit just as much as guys.

Most guys on this forum wouldn’t have a clue about training your garden variety female (non-athlete).

TNT

[/quote]

Exactly! Yes these are close to max effort sets. They obviously don’t only train this way all the time. I feel it is important to test them to make sure they are making signifigant progress. Of course form is enforced. If you take your average female and try to get her to squat 100 lbs all the way down she is not going to come close to doing it. If you want their bodies to change like you said you cant do it with pink dumbells.

If you concentrate on 100% form they wont see any results for 6 months and will probably give up. Yes they are not athletes and they are doing this to look better. They all have made progress towards looking better, whether weightloss or adding muscle they each train accordingly to their specific goals. The ones with better form and leaner bodies have been doing it longer than the ones with mechanical problems. The idea of the video is for the clients. We are not leaving anyone out who wants to be in it, some have been training less than 3 months or (12 sessions). So it’s not a best of video, its our average clients.

[quote]kaeosali wrote:
Five stars on that response! You are correct in that the weight isn’t “too heavy” so the risk of injury is very low. The girls are all reaching there goals.
[/quote]

It’s besides the point; using light weights doesn’t validate/legitimate using bad form. With every rep performed, either with just the empty bar or a world record, should be as close to perfection as possible.

When I was competing in olympic lifting we would warm-up with just the bar, and if the form was not picture perfect we could not move on to our work sets.

[quote]chris666 wrote:
derek wrote:
chris666 wrote:

Your argument for bad form does not make sense whatsoever. These girls are in it for the looks and not to become good at powerlifting or strongman stuff.

And if you are into powerlifting, it is not a question IF you get hurt but WHEN.

No, your fisrt comment about what I wrote makes no sense whatsoever.

Where exactly did I argue FOR bad form? Words mean things so you need to use the correct ones when you accuse people of things.

And I’d like to hear the interview you conducted with these girls where you asked them about thier future goals. Oh, you didn’t?

He said his clients are NOT ATHLETES.

The point I was making is that there’s not a fucking person on this site that uses perfect form all the time, every set and every rep. No one.

There is a difference between not so perfect form (e.g. leaning forward a tad too much) and the absolutely horrible form of some of the girls in the squat and DL. If you as a trainer see the form of your client break down in the squat or DL like that, you terminate the set.

I had a 42 y/o female (in it for the looks of course) curling a 55-60lb (I forget now) barbell. This douche sat and watched and said something to us along the lines of “Shouldn’t she be standing perfectly still, with no movement in the upper body at all?”. My response was “Well if you had almost half your bodyweight in your hands and were curling it in an arc away from your body, do you think you could remain motionless?”. He just stared at me pondering the question I asked him. Of course I had to inform him that "That’s the type of attitude that keeps you benching 25lbs dumbbells (he really was).

We haven’t talked since.

Can you see a difference in cheating on curls and lower back rounding in the squat as far as potential for injury is concerned?
[/quote]

You have some very good points. I realize that the girls may not be athletes in a legitimate competition venue but my clients have all flipped tires and lifted Atlas Stones and none are truly athletes.

I’m just making everyone aware that perfection just isn’t always possible all the time, every set.

Yes, you shoot for it and train for it but don’t get too excited about the small stuff (some DL and some squats there weren’t acceptable from my POV but it seemed like the whole “always perfect, all the time, no exceptions” was a little too much.)

Let’s face it, the argument shouldnt be about max effort form being subpar. These girls are not be taught proper form period, or they’re just simply being progressed to quickly.
be professional and admit the lack of attention on form and think of your client. This isnt about a bruised ego, but rather the safety of the client.

[quote]derek wrote:

I’m just making everyone aware that perfection just isn’t always possible all the time, every set.

[/quote]

I agree; however when the same technical mistakes come back over and over on all the reps of all the clients filmed it tells me that there is a pattern, a negative one.

There is a difference between being less than technically perfect once in a while and having the same mistake being repeated over and over, especially if it is repeated by several clients of the same trainer.

Furthermore, there is also a difference in being able to maintain perfect biomechanical form on the Atlas stones than on a squat; a squat is much more standardized and easily controlable.

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
Let’s face it, the argument shouldnt be about max effort form being subpar. These girls are not be taught proper form period, or they’re just simply being progressed to quickly.
be professional and admit the lack of attention on form and think of your client. This isnt about a bruised ego, but rather the safety of the client.[/quote]

I agree 100%

I have seen this MANY TIMES with coaches I evaluated. Two things that happen:

  1. They want to prove themselves to their clients. The easiest way to prove how good a trainer you are is to be able to show them objective measures of progress. Among those measures is the amount of weight lifted. Some coaches will be more permissive regarding form just so that their clients can see a faster increase in the poundage they lift. This is a perfect example of a coach who actually train peoples to show how good HE is instead of training peoples to improve them.

  2. Some coaches do not want to bruise their client’s ego … maybe out of fear that the client will go somewhere else… so they become more like cheerleaders than coaches: they prefer to applaud any lift completed, despite obvious unsafe form than to be critical and actually coach the client.

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
jehovasfitness wrote:
Let’s face it, the argument shouldnt be about max effort form being subpar. These girls are not be taught proper form period, or they’re just simply being progressed to quickly.
be professional and admit the lack of attention on form and think of your client. This isnt about a bruised ego, but rather the safety of the client.

Agreed 100%

I have seen this MANY TIMES in coaches I evaluated. Two things that happen:

  1. They want to prove themselves to their clients. The easiest way to prove how good a trainer you are is to be able to show them objective measures of progress. Among those measures is the amount of weight lifted. Some coaches will be more permissive regarding for just so that their clients can see a faster increase in the poundage they lift. This is a perfect example of a coach who actually train peoples to show how good HE is instead of training peoples to improve them.

  2. Some coaches do not want to bruise their client’s ego … maybe out of fear that the client will go somewhere else… so they become more like cheerleaders than coaches: they prefer to applaud any lift completed, despite obvious unsafe form than to be critical and actually coach the client.[/quote]

Christian,

You are making way too many assumptions today. We film so that we can point out the errors in their form.

Please
critique

I think those squats are fine. I do notice some “tail under” some forward movement and instability with the knees as well. Then again he’s calling them perfect.

He is one of t-nations authors and he does call these “perfect for squats”. He also has over 82,000 views on in so if you think the first cut video we have is largely viewed and question the intelligence of our trainers here what do you think of this?

Also how close are you to that perfect form 600lbs dead lift. When can we see it? Not just a photo…

Thanks again for your input.

if you were taping to critique, why not critique while they were doing the exercise to provide instant feedback?

I’ll be honest I don’t teach clients the deadlift because of its high technical form, I understand my limits.

The squat I usually use db’s with clients because their form seems to be a lot better with them. Very few people grasp the concept of a squat with a barbell so I choose not to use it. Though I will say most of my clients work out on their own so I have to give them exercises that I know they can master quickly.

[quote]kaeosali wrote:

Also how close are you to that perfect form 600lbs dead lift. When can we see it? Not just a photo…
.[/quote]

Why be all defensive? You posted a video and asked for our comments. You didn’t even mention the reason why you filmed it in the first place.

How close am I? Pretty darn close. As for perfect form, remember that I competed in olympic lifting for 5 years and trained at the national center under the guy who was responsible for the olympic lifting team, the guys was way more anal than I am regarding form! At the time he had us do some form of deadlift or pull (snatch pull, clean pull, etc.) every day, sometimes twice a day. Plus, the olympic lifts, which we also practiced daily, require a perfect pulling form.

Five years of this as well as years training pro athletes, olympians and other amateur athletes from 26 different sports, and I do believe that I know enough about proper pulling to have to prove myself to anyone.

I am seriously confused. Do they get naked in the next video? Or were you seriously posting this as a training video? They do get naked right? Please post the link - one or two of them looked like they had potential.

[quote]kaeosali wrote:

Again I agree. Thanks for the input. We have over 5,000 training hours here over the last two years with no back injuries. [/quote]

That is irrelevant. I trained for 8 years with some of those same form errors before enough damage accumulated – yes, the damage accumulates over time – enough to disable me with a severe injury.

The bad thing is the damage I did to my back is not fixable. A damaged disc loses height, causing excess tension on certain ligaments, making them always more vulnerable to injury…the chronic low-grade inflammation in the joint leads to calcium buildup, arthritis, and spinal stenosis in your 60’s or 70’s…

If I had developed those bad habits with a trainer coaching me…