T Nation

Victims of Tookie Williams.....




Yeah, but all those dead bodies can't take away Tookie's inspirational writings, or his multiple Nobel nominations. Surely we should have celebrated his great works instead of punishing him for his hasty youthful indiscretions!
/dumbass off


Tell the families of the people he killed that those deaths were youth indescretion. He got what he had coming, same as any other killer.


Um, I'm pretty sure that was sarcasm.


His victims don't matter. Tookie had someone co-author childrens books for him. That makes him a martyr.


I actually disagree with most on here. Saying he deserved to die for the victims is quite a vengeful way of thinking. Vengance isn't a good thing in my book. The qualifications of the death penalty in my book is if the person is violent and shows no signs of ever being a positive influence on anyone or anything at any time.

I feel bad for the families, sure I do, but if killing tookie actually makes them feel better in some way then they are really hateful people. Vengance is what is driving all the hate and turmoil in the middle east. Isreal kills some bad people or whatever, palestinians have to avenge their deaths. isreal has to retaliate in turn and the cycle continues.

If the man was reformed, I do not think he should be a free man, he messed up bad and will do his time, be it life or whatever. BUT, if he can reach out to people and stop them from making his mistakes, not only is it idiotic to kill him it's down right immoral.

Basically what the world just said is that we would rather be vengeful and kill this man than let him stop even one child from becoming him and therefore saving future victims of violent crimes. Not only did california just sentance tookie to death, but undoubtedly they have killed potentially many other innocent people because at least a handful of kids are now going to go down that wrong path that tookie went down and kill people.

Again, vengence isn't logical. It serves no purpose. If the guy is a cancer, sure, kill him. If he was a cancer, but has reformed himself into a white blood cell, then by all means, let him make up for the mistakes he has made while he is here and let him face his ultimate judgement from whatever god he prays to.



Really capitol punishment is a complex issue, and revenge should not be part of the equation.

I would not be fore capitol punishment if people were actually punished in prison. There are a lot of things worse then death.

He was sentenced to death, so that was his punishment for his crime. Regardless of whether he changed or not, does not matter because he is still to be punished for the crime. Sure I like the idea of reforming people, and making them better for society, but if a person does wrong, they should be punished for their actions, regardless of whether they feel sorry or not.

It should be pointed out that anyone can be nominated for a Nobel peace prize. Not hard to do at all, yet it is touted as proof that a person is good. The head of the KKK could be nominated tomorrow.

Now I do believe prisons should be completely changed. They should not just be a place for people storage, but there should be more attempts at reforming them. Also they should be kept busy with work of some sort. I am talking about a 60 plus hour a week job. Contract out the work, and it helps pay for their time in prison.

I hear too many stories about some minor criminal going in, and a hardened criminal coming out. This should not be a school for crime, nor a system that makes people worse.


Veg, I get what you're saying but what if everything he did was for selfish reasons and not genuine? What of he did all of those things just so he could live? We'll never know of course but I would consider that a highly likely scenario. After all he refused to divulge and info about the "gang." If he was really pure in his intentions I would think he would do EVERYTHING in his power to stop the gangs. Seems kind of half assed to me.


You know lets not forget that the only reson for him reforming and being a so-called positive roll model is only because he was in prison with nothing else to do. If it werent for prison there would be more dead if not by his hands by his command.

There isnt one person facing long prison terms that doesnt become a born again christian (or relative religion) and is gonna change thier life around the day they get out.

When the reality is that the larger percentage of them do go back to crime and also forget their new found religion.

If the system really "worked" he should have been put to death years ago when he was still (in society's eyes and mine) a peice of shit gang banger and drain on our society. If that were the case this thread nor the controversy would have ever been started.



The law was designed to prevent bias and deliver justice equally to all. The law doesn't state that you can kill a shit-load of people and then say you're sorry and all will be forgiven. The law is cause and effect, just like life. You do "A" and you get "B". You stand in front of s speeding bus and you get run over. You can't take it back by saying, oops, I didn't mean that, can I start over again.

Next, since the death-penalty law was in place long before Tookie (what the hell kind of name is that anyway?) it cannot be stated to be vengeance as long as the same results come to all people who commit the same types of crimes.

So Tookie's death was actually the result of his own actions, not vengeance by the State.

Also, the fact that he is sorry for his wrongs and may have changed his life around doesn't change the consequences of the law. If it did it would not be justice and the law would be meaningless. So the Tooksters' remorse after he got caught has no bearing on the acts he committed. It is a separate issue and doesn't make his victims less dead.

So while we applaud his efforts after he decided to become human, he must still receive the consequences of his actions.


What if? What difference does that make? If he could have had a more positive influence ON OTHERS by living than by dying, what sense does killing him make if he was going to spend the rest of his life in jail anyway? It comes down to revenge if there is even a hint of reform...and why are we killing people for revenge?


Hey lorisco I don't know if you noticed it or not, but that's the part that liberals hate.

It's those nasty consequences....


He made a 1/2 assed attempt. If he really wanted to make a difference he would have given the police the information they needed to combat the gangs. By him taking silence in that respect shows that his intentions were questionable.

Of all of the lives he MAY have saved by "helping" spread the word about anti-gang education, there are hundreds if not thousands of people that are dead as a direct result of him founding/taking over the crips.

I do disagree with waiting so long to carry out the execution. Thats an aweful long time to lolly gag.


Then why is Manson never going to face death?


Then why is Manson never going to face death?[/quote]

Manson didnt kill anyone, his nutjob lsd enduced cheer squad did


I hate to inform you of this, but he was on death row. Thanks for your educated input, however.


I didn't say forgive the guy or let him go, Some of you are trying to put words in my mouth, Lorisco, Zeb, pay attention here. I am not saying not punish them, and i'm not arguing anything except, that if he could have provided benefit to society in some way, then life in prison would be a better alternative than death.

If you guys want them to dig ditches on the side of the road, Collect garbage, write childrens books, do seminars for kids on the mistakes they made. Whatever positive impact they can have, after incarceration, should be exploited. This is not going to benefit them in any tangible way shape or form here on earth physically. I do not want them to be parolled if it was not in thier sentance to do so, I do however think the system needs to be changed so that someone who is doing good for whatever reason, should be allowed to continue to do so for the benefit of the society.

The big thing some of you are missing is that I really don't give a shit about tookie, I do give a shit about the 10 year old kid who is going to be facing a choice in the next year or two that could he have listened to this man or read a book by him could have possibly made a better choice when that time comes. Any positive hedging we can give to the underpriveledged people of this country should be exploited.

Here is a guiy who is sitting in prison, basically trying to empower young black children to stay in school and out of gangs, and the kids are listening to him because he is one of the most famous gang members in history and were just going to cut him out because a couple families want revenge. They want to sleep better at night knowing the man who took thier loved ones away is dead. They want him to be judged by god, like they couldn't wait 20 years so he could save some poor black kids from a life of crime.

The benefits of him staying alive simply far outweigh the negatives, and and business or even person makes decisions based on the good outweighing the bad. If you don't, then you are an illogical small minded hateful loon.

Again, I am not against the death penalty, but it should be flexible enough so that the guy who is in for life that stabs an inmate a week gets fried, while the ones who try to do some good, any good with the rest of thier time, are rewarded with continued time to do those good things. Even if they only do good things just to save thier own lives, does it really matter?



Has it been mentioned on here that he dedicated one of his "childrens books" to an inamte that murdered a San Quentin C.O. in the late 60's or 70's?


He was a hell of a good guy wasn't he?

While I am conflicted on the use of the death penalty in all cases, I am disgusted that this particular murdering bastard has gotten so much good press.


Keep in mind it was "good press" brought to you by the liberal media!