T Nation

Viagra-the Next Critical PCT Drug?


#1

interesting research study...

www.ergo-log.com/sildenafiltest.html

i think many of us have used viagra or cialis at some point in "off" times , to me (and others i have talked to) it seemed to effect more than just erectile issues, almost as if it increased libido to some degree (personnaly i think cialis is superior in this regard). Anyway i think the study points to some reasons for this and perhaps a good argument for adding viagra or cialis to PCT protocols.


#2

From an anecdotal perspective, I can state with the utmost assuredness that my libido increases noticeably, often very noticeably, when using cialis. I have yet to try viagra and I have yet to give either drug a try off-cycle, but I can damn sure say that something beyond mere increased blood flow to the penis is going on.

Great find, mp. ergo-log is the shit.


#3

[quote]Cortes wrote:
From an anecdotal perspective, I can state with the utmost assuredness that my libido increases noticeably, often very noticeably, when using cialis. I have yet to try viagra and I have yet to give either drug a try off-cycle, but I can damn sure say that something beyond mere increased blood flow to the penis is going on.

Great find, mp. ergo-log is the shit.[/quote]

EXACTLY… i have always felt the same way just had no evidence to back it up


#4

Mine does, but only if i have a raging hard on. If i take it and don’t get aroused it does nothing for my libido.

So i assume(d) it was more about having a dick so hard it could bend steel and so forth wanting to pummel the twat off someone… literally.

And while i have never successfully pummelled the twat off a lassie, i will endeavour to give it my all.

On another slightly related note - can anyone shed light on the supposed tolerance to Tadalafil that can occur after a certain length of use, if it lasts or if it simply doesn’t occur at all.

Ta


#5

[quote] Brook wrote:
Mine does, but only if i have a raging hard on. If i take it and don’t get aroused it does nothing for my libido.

So i assume(d) it was more about having a dick so hard it could bend steel and so forth wanting to pummel the twat off someone… literally.

And while i have never successfully pummelled the twat off a lassie, i will endeavour to give it my all.

On another slightly related note - can anyone shed light on the supposed tolerance to Tadalafil that can occur after a certain length of use, if it lasts or if it simply doesn’t occur at all.

Ta[/quote]

In theory no resistance can be built up. No receptors etc are involved so no “down grade” can occur, it simply blocks the action of PDE5. Your body cannot react to this blockade by producing more PDE5 (ie there are no feedback loops involved). The same is true for all PDE5 blockers.

Where anecdotal evidence is stated that men no longer “react” to cialis it is likely to be a progression in the disease responsible for their problem and not a build up in tolerance to the drug.

Incidentally impotent men who use cialis on a regular basis have also been shown to have increases in their testosterone levels. The researchers though assumed that this was a side effect of having more successful sexual encounters and hence increased self esteem (which would increase T). They did not offer any explanation regarding blood flow etc. As testosterone diffuses from the testicles into the blood stream an improved flow of blood could possibly improve the rate of diffusion as well as supplying more nutrients etc to the tissue (this incidentally has been offered as an explanation to exercise induced T increases). If I remember correctly a significant increase had occured within 1 month of stating daily Cialis use.


#6

[quote]Cymru wrote:

Incidentally impotent men who use cialis on a regular basis have also been shown to have increases in their testosterone levels. The researchers though assumed that this was a side effect of having more successful sexual encounters and hence increased self esteem (which would increase T). [/quote]

Well, then, by extension, the mouse study cited above would actually serve to refute this conclusion. Unless you accept the notion of a cocky mouse.

Incidentally, Cymru, you should post more often. I always perk up and listen when you post. It amazes me that your post count is so low, actually, because I feel like you have hundreds more posts than you do.


#7

[quote]Cymru wrote:
Brook wrote:
Mine does, but only if i have a raging hard on. If i take it and don’t get aroused it does nothing for my libido.

So i assume(d) it was more about having a dick so hard it could bend steel and so forth wanting to pummel the twat off someone… literally.

And while i have never successfully pummelled the twat off a lassie, i will endeavour to give it my all.

On another slightly related note - can anyone shed light on the supposed tolerance to Tadalafil that can occur after a certain length of use, if it lasts or if it simply doesn’t occur at all.

Ta

In theory no resistance can be built up. No receptors etc are involved so no “down grade” can occur, it simply blocks the action of PDE5. Your body cannot react to this blockade by producing more PDE5 (ie there are no feedback loops involved). The same is true for all PDE5 blockers.

Where anecdotal evidence is stated that men no longer “react” to cialis it is likely to be a progression in the disease responsible for their problem and not a build up in tolerance to the drug.

Incidentally impotent men who use cialis on a regular basis have also been shown to have increases in their testosterone levels. The researchers though assumed that this was a side effect of having more successful sexual encounters and hence increased self esteem (which would increase T). They did not offer any explanation regarding blood flow etc. As testosterone diffuses from the testicles into the blood stream an improved flow of blood could possibly improve the rate of diffusion as well as supplying more nutrients etc to the tissue (this incidentally has been offered as an explanation to exercise induced T increases). If I remember correctly a significant increase had occured within 1 month of stating daily Cialis use. [/quote]

It does seem as though androgens can regulate PDE5 gene expression and metabolic activity. Without looking it up, I am not sure how in depth the research is, but I do remember a decent amount information from previous research. With the aforementioned increase in T via PED5I one could venture a guess that it could, in part, explain some of the tolerance seen with regular use.


#8

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Cymru wrote:

Incidentally impotent men who use cialis on a regular basis have also been shown to have increases in their testosterone levels. The researchers though assumed that this was a side effect of having more successful sexual encounters and hence increased self esteem (which would increase T).

Well, then, by extension, the mouse study cited above would actually serve to refute this conclusion. Unless you accept the notion of a cocky mouse.

Incidentally, Cymru, you should post more often. I always perk up and listen when you post. It amazes me that your post count is so low, actually, because I feel like you have hundreds more posts than you do.
[/quote]

Cortes
Your comments are appreciated I will try to stop being so lazy and add something where I can. My problem is that I am spending too much time in the sex and the male animal forums!!


#9

[quote]egnatiosj wrote:
Cymru wrote:
Brook wrote:
Mine does, but only if i have a raging hard on. If i take it and don’t get aroused it does nothing for my libido.

So i assume(d) it was more about having a dick so hard it could bend steel and so forth wanting to pummel the twat off someone… literally.

And while i have never successfully pummelled the twat off a lassie, i will endeavour to give it my all.

On another slightly related note - can anyone shed light on the supposed tolerance to Tadalafil that can occur after a certain length of use, if it lasts or if it simply doesn’t occur at all.

Ta

In theory no resistance can be built up. No receptors etc are involved so no “down grade” can occur, it simply blocks the action of PDE5. Your body cannot react to this blockade by producing more PDE5 (ie there are no feedback loops involved). The same is true for all PDE5 blockers.

Where anecdotal evidence is stated that men no longer “react” to cialis it is likely to be a progression in the disease responsible for their problem and not a build up in tolerance to the drug.

Incidentally impotent men who use cialis on a regular basis have also been shown to have increases in their testosterone levels. The researchers though assumed that this was a side effect of having more successful sexual encounters and hence increased self esteem (which would increase T). They did not offer any explanation regarding blood flow etc. As testosterone diffuses from the testicles into the blood stream an improved flow of blood could possibly improve the rate of diffusion as well as supplying more nutrients etc to the tissue (this incidentally has been offered as an explanation to exercise induced T increases). If I remember correctly a significant increase had occured within 1 month of stating daily Cialis use.

It does seem as though androgens can regulate PDE5 gene expression and metabolic activity. Without looking it up, I am not sure how in depth the research is, but I do remember a decent amount information from previous research. With the aforementioned increase in T via PED5I one could venture a guess that it could, in part, explain some of the tolerance seen with regular use.
[/quote]

I am under the impression that androgens actually increase the efficiency of PDE5 inhibitors? There are numerous research articles demonstrating improvements in the action of PDE5 inhibitors upon addition of androgens (in hypogonadic men). I have included some below.

This to me me would say that the opposite action is likely to occur. An increase in testosterone from viagra (or any other PDE5 In), if this does in fact occur, would cause an improvement in the action of the said PDE5 inhibitor?

I do not think you can underestimate the effect of disease progression in the “build up of tolerance” to PDE5 inhibitors - men who have to take these drugs on a regular basis normally have some underlying disease that is likely to progress significantly (when it is at the stage of causing erectile problems) over 2 years or so, affecting the likelihood of effective chemical induced solutions . This means more damage to blood vessels or even lower T levels (depending on the illness). Preventing “PDE5 tolerance” is best done by halting or reversing the progress of the underlying problem.

I am happy to be a guinea pig. I have just ordered a large quantity of Cialis, when it arrives I promise to take every day and will let you know if it stops working ha ha!!

Erectile dysfunction and testosterone deficiency.

Blute M, Hakimian P, Kashanian J, Shteynshluyger A, Lee M, Shabsigh R.
Division of Urology, Maimonides Medical Center, Brooklyn, NY 11219, USA.
A definitive role of testosterone in erectile function has been controversial; however, recent evidence is becoming available which substantiates a key function for this hormone. Testosterone deficiency is associated with a decline in erectile function and testosterone levels are inversely correlated with increasing severity of erectile dysfunction. Erectile dysfunction can be caused by multifactorial pathologies. In particular, erectile dysfunction may be the first symptom of cardiovascular disease. Animal studies have demonstrated that castration causes vascular smooth muscle cell atrophy, venous leakage, adipocytes in the subtunical space, loss of elastic fibers and increase in collagen deposition. Testosterone increases the expression of nitric oxide synthase and phosphodiesterase type 5, both principal enzymes involved in the erectile process. Testosterone replacement alone in hypogonadal men can restore erectile function. A significant proportion of men who fail to respond to a PDE5 inhibitor are testosterone deficient. Testosterone replacement therapy can convert over half of these men into phosphodiesterase type 5 responders. It is now recommended that testosterone levels should be assessed in all patients with erectile dysfunction.

he relationship between hypogonadism and erectile dysfunction.

Hwang TI, Lin YC.
Division of Urology, Department of Surgery, Shin Kong WHS Memorial Hospital, Taipei, Taiwan. M001009@ms.skh.org.tw
It is well known that testosterone enhances sexual interest leading to an increased frequency of sexual acts and an increase in the frequency of sleep-related erections. However, it has little effect on fantasy- or visually induced erections. Exact contribution to erection from testosterone in men remains unclear. Animal studies have well demonstrated that testosterone plays critical physiological (activity of nitric oxide synthases and phosphodiesterases), biochemical (through an endothelial-independent pathway and adrenergic tonicity) and structural (change of fibroelasticity and hollow cell accumulation) roles in erectile function. The supplementation of testosterone to castrated animals can restore erectile function. Clinically, reports of patients with erectile dysfunction (ED) combined with hypogonadism who receive testosterone therapy have inconsistent results. However, testosterone may ameliorate the expression of the phosphodiesterase-5 (PDE5) inhibitor, and the use of testosterone in conjunction with the PDE5 inhibitor revealed convincing results. Because of potential risks in clinical use, testosterone therapy should be individualized, carefully considered and closely monitored, especially, in patients with possible occult prostate cancer, and large benign prostatic hyperplasia. Lower urinary tract symptoms might be worsened by this treatment, since the prostate is an androgen-dependent tissue.

Significance of hypogonadism in erectile dysfunction.

Buvat J, Bou Jaoud�?�© G.
CETPARP, 3 rue Carolus, Lille, France. jacques@buvat.org
To review the role and significance of hypogonadism, defined as a low testosterone (T) level, in erectile dysfunction (ED). Review of literature. Serum T is below 3 ng/ml in 12% of ED patients, including 4% before and 15% after the age of 50. Replacement studies in men with severe hypogonadism demonstrate that sexual desire and arousal, as well as the frequency of sexual activity and spontaneous erections are clearly T-dependant. Psychic erections are partly T-dependant. The effects of T upon sexual function are dose-dependant up to a threshold level that is consistent within an individual, but markedly variable between individuals, ranging from 2 to 4.5 ng/ml. More evidence is required to confirm a significant impact of T on the intrapenile vascular mechanisms of erections in men as it is the case in animals. No convincing association of T with ED has been found in epidemiological studies. As concerns clinical experience, although a meta-analysis of the randomized controlled trials established that T therapy consistently restores erectile function in young hypogonadal patients with T below 3.46 ng/ml, the effects of this treatment have been mostly disappointing when used alone in older patients consulting for ED who are subsequently diagnosed to have hypogonadism following routine T measurement. These poor results may probably be explained by the high prevalence of co-morbidities, and by the fact that ED itself may induce hypogonadism. Combination therapy with T and PDE5 inhibitor (PDE5I) may be effective in the hypogonadal ED patients when T therapy alone fails. However, more evidence is required to confirm the hypothesis that a minimum level of T is required for a complete effect of PDE5I in certain men, since a PDE5I was able to restore complete erections in severely hypogonadal men. Though a low T level is not always the only cause of ED in hypogonadal ED patients, there are important benefits in screening for hypogonadism in ED. A low T level justifies a 3 month trial of T therapy, before combining a PDE5I if T therapy alone fails.


#10

good info cymru…while i don’t HAVE to have it…i often get in the habit of taking 10mg of cialis daily due to the huge difference in makes in the libido department. Like i said before i can’t necessarily explain it but it certainly happens. Also I agree completley with your disease progression model due primarily to the fact that i have never seen a reduced effect from cialis even when taken long term.

By lonterm i am talking 7-10 days as opposed to just taking it once every week or something, so i can’t say with absolute certainty that there would not be a change if taken for months at a time.


#11

I found that cialis occasionally gave me headaches when working out on it but it did give amazing pumps and vascularity…I am still far more likely to use it for recreation (bedroom performance) than athletic performance but I did notice a boost.


#12

To test the theory the Brazilians gave mice drinking water to which sildenafil had been added for a period of four weeks. The lab animals consumed 25 mg of sildenafil per kg bodyweight each day. By the way, thatâ??s not an advisable dose for humans. The table below shows that sildenafil increased the testosterone concentration in the animalsâ?? blood twelve-fold

Now I too am a Tadafil user. But I believe the Sildenafil is commonly doses at 100mg? So for me 25mg x 107kg = 2675. Basically 27 blue pills. So yeah I think there’s be something to that. I got my tadafil in 40mg caps and I try/like to take one EOD. I do think there is something of a benefit outside the sexual arena. Although even if there wasnt I’d still take it EOD :slight_smile: