T Nation

Very Low T From Blood Test

Hi Friends,
Just had results my blood test, only one hormone tested (Testosterone) I was surprised results are so bad:

7.8 nmol/l (9.9 - 27.8)

can someone convert these to the normal american unit (ng/l) I am more familiar with these even though I am in UK.

My Doc suggested I go for a re-test, this time first thing in morning, as he believes it could make some difference.
I am being referred to a Urologist.
I couldn’t convince doctor to test any other hormones
At least it seems to explain my low libido

I don’t know whether it would be possible with these latest number, but I am (still )hoping to avoid going onto TRT. I would like to maintain my natural testicular function as i would like to add more children to my family. I have a young wife and young 3 children.

I hoping to lose weight, and have joined a gym and been doing it for about a month now with some minor weight loss.

I am using the step machines and monitoring my heart rate to keep me in fatburn zone (approx 123bpm for me) I want to maintain muscle so I am afraid to go into the cardio zone (>123bpm).
I am lifting very heavy and using gym machines with only free weights being DB I use for biceps.I feel strong since starting gym.

Incidently, the test was done just befor I started gym and weight loss, so hoping my next test would show greater numbers.

I need to start getting enough sleep previously I could go without sleep or get 1- 2 hours. But this has to stop.

Your advise and thoughts on how to lose weight and train effectively without losing muscle are welcome.

Also how to naturally increase my T

Regards

I am hypogonadal since age 22 and am now 28. If you are hypogonadal, you need TRT to function like a normal human being. That’s it!

Go to a urologist or endocrinologist, or preferably, a urologist with a fellowship in andrology to see if you do indeed have hypogonadism. If you are worrying about testicular function for more kiddies, the right doctor can prescribe HCG or Clomid for that matter. But, go to the right doctor who knows what he is doing!

[quote]usownt wrote:

7.8 nmol/l (9.9 - 27.8)

can someone convert these to the normal american unit (ng/l) I am more familiar with these even though I am in UK.
[/quote]

To convert from the conventional unit (ng/dL) over to the SI unit (nmol/L), multiply by the conversion factor of 0.0347. To convert from the SI unit back to the conventional unit, divide by the conversion factor of 0.0347.

So in your case, 7.8 nmol/L / 0.0347 = 224.8 ng/dL

hebs

[quote]hebsie wrote:
usownt wrote:

7.8 nmol/l (9.9 - 27.8)

can someone convert these to the normal american unit (ng/l) I am more familiar with these even though I am in UK.

To convert from the conventional unit (ng/dL) over to the SI unit (nmol/L), multiply by the conversion factor of 0.0347. To convert from the SI unit back to the conventional unit, divide by the conversion factor of 0.0347.

So in your case, 7.8 nmol/L / 0.0347 = 224.8 ng/dL

hebs

[/quote]

Thanks Hebs, I always wanted to know how to figure that out.

This is a potentially serious situation when it comes to dosing, so I’d like to elaborate on this a bit.

You can’t convert nmole to ng without knowing the molecular weight of the compound in question.

To do the conversion, you multiply the number of nmole times the molecular weight of the compound and then divide by the units conversion.

In the case of testosterone with a molecular weight of 288.4 grams/mole the conversion looks like this:

7.8 nmole X 288.4 = 2249 ng. Since we’re moving from Liters to deciliters, you divide that by ten = 224.9

Like I said, you can’t convert nmole to ng unless you know the molecular weight of the compound in question. The 0.0347 number isn’t a “universal” conversion factor.

I took an over the counter estrogen blocker I bought at the sports supplement store and took 4 caps a day and raised my test levels to 1820 ng/dL, which is around 63.1 nmol/l. Research backs that these results are typical. I then backed down to 2 caps a day and have not tested again yet. Like with most any supplement you have to cycle 8 weeks on 4 weeks on for example(follow instructions on the bottle). I switched to a powerful natural test booster after that.

[quote]happydog48 wrote:
This is a potentially serious situation when it comes to dosing, so I’d like to elaborate on this a bit.[/quote]

…do explain? I’m confused, how does his question relate to dosing. The O/P isn’t taking anything for his low levels to begin with??

[quote]Like I said, you can’t convert nmole to ng unless you know the molecular weight of the compound in question. The 0.0347 number isn’t a “universal” conversion factor.
[/quote]

…no it’s not a universal conversion factor for ALL compounds, I never said that it was. The O/P asked about converting a single blood test result, in his case Testosterone (see the first post in this thread). So in his case, the number 0.0347 is the accepted conversion factor for Testosterone.

This site provides the proper factors for converting conventional to SI units (for clinical data).

http://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/units/scales/clinical_data.html

[quote]Greek Tarzan wrote:
I took an over the counter estrogen blocker I bought at the sports supplement store…[/quote]

Do tell - what was this particular product? What was the brand or chemical name?

[quote]I switched to a powerful natural test booster after that.
[/quote]

And, what was this one? Alpha Male? TRIBEX? Something new?

Thanks.

There are a number of good OTC(over the counter) estrogen blockers, and test boosters out there. I would rather not mention the products that I used, because people might think I am trying to sell a product. All I want to do is share with people a way to raise your test(testosterone) levels naturally. I will say for your sake, that it is a very popular OTC estrogen blocker, with independant research studies published about the results of the product’s effects on test levels.

As far as the powerful test booster, I use a very popular test booster, that is recommended in most sports supplement shops as great PCT(post cycle therapy). I use it as a stand alone test booster. I have experienced strenght gains with it, but I have not tested my T-levels on it yet.

[quote]hebsie wrote:
happydog48 wrote:
This is a potentially serious situation when it comes to dosing, so I’d like to elaborate on this a bit.

…do explain? I’m confused, how does his question relate to dosing. The O/P isn’t taking anything for his low levels to begin with??[/quote]

Sorry, I wasn’t referring to the Original Post. I was just concerned that someone would see this and generalize it to their situation.

[quote]
Like I said, you can’t convert nmole to ng unless you know the molecular weight of the compound in question. The 0.0347 number isn’t a “universal” conversion factor.

…no it’s not a universal conversion factor for ALL compounds, I never said that it was. The O/P asked about converting a single blood test result, in his case Testosterone (see the first post in this thread). So in his case, the number 0.0347 is the accepted conversion factor for Testosterone.

This site provides the proper factors for converting conventional to SI units (for clinical data).

http://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/units/scales/clinical_data.html[/quote]

Like I said, I was just concerned that someone would read your post and assume that .0347 was a universal conversion factor for nmole to ng. Most units of measure convert with a single factor. Nmoles isn’t one of them and since that makes it unusual, I thought it was worth pointing that out. No offense intended.

Just pointing out that guys with age related hypogonadism typically will not find that supplements will restore T levels to the point where there is a reversal of degeneration from low T. Reducing E2 feedback on the HPTA will not be enough. And hCG will often not do what is needed.

TRT docs have learned that to be effective, T levels need to be near [or above] lab upper ranges and they also know that lab ranges vary from lab to lab.

[quote]happydog48 wrote:

Like I said, I was just concerned that someone would read your post and assume that .0347 was a universal conversion factor for nmole to ng. Most units of measure convert with a single factor. Nmoles isn’t one of them and since that makes it unusual, I thought it was worth pointing that out. No offense intended.
[/quote]

…not that it was necessary but thanks just the same. You caught me on a day that I was ragging just a little!..hebs

[quote]KSman wrote:
Just pointing out that guys with age related hypogonadism typically will not find that supplements will restore T levels to the point where there is a reversal of degeneration from low T. Reducing E2 feedback on the HPTA will not be enough. And hCG will often not do what is needed.

TRT docs have learned that to be effective, T levels need to be near [or above] lab upper ranges and they also know that lab ranges vary from lab to lab.[/quote]

Mny OTC estrogen blockers (with tons of independant research) will raise T-Levels to over 1000, so I don’t understand what you are saying. However, I realize that you know more about this subject than I do, so I am trying to learn.

[quote]Greek Tarzan wrote:
KSman wrote:
Just pointing out that guys with age related hypogonadism typically will not find that supplements will restore T levels to the point where there is a reversal of degeneration from low T. Reducing E2 feedback on the HPTA will not be enough. And hCG will often not do what is needed.

TRT docs have learned that to be effective, T levels need to be near [or above] lab upper ranges and they also know that lab ranges vary from lab to lab.

Mny OTC estrogen blockers (with tons of independant research) will raise T-Levels to over 1000, so I don’t understand what you are saying. However, I realize that you know more about this subject than I do, so I am trying to learn.[/quote]

Those studies are not done with old guys who are hypogonadic. They have low T because their pituitary or testes [or both] are not working well. If this were not so, then you would see doctors fixing hypogonadism with Arimidex. For aged hypogonadic guys, AIs will not get the AI levels needed and/or the testes are not working well anymore. “Estrogen blockers” are what? SERMs? AIs? That is not a very precise term.

The research papers are exploring how the body responds to a drug. These are not clinical trials to develop treatment. These research studies typically deliberately avoid guys who do not have things working normally. I am referring to research done with AIs or SERMs. I don’t think that any OTC products work as well as an AI or SERM. If so, those OTCs would be good for treating breast and other estrogen receptor positive cancers.

There is research on some things that block estrogen, where the mechanism of action is explored. The ‘drug’ studied is delivered by an IV injection. That is done to eliminate the effects of variability of absorption and first pass action of the liver, both of which are highly variable person to person. Some studies have shown interesting results for ‘drugs’ that are very poorly absorbed through the gut. These ‘drugs’ can be quite useless as an oral agent. Many products are sold hyping research for the a drug that effectively is useless because it cannot be absorbed. In this case, that is independent research for a ‘drug’ that has very little therapeutic action, or does work for some and many others cannot absorb through the gut. And some OTCs otherwise do not provide enough of an ‘drug’ to have any therapeutic value. What is needed is a clinical trial, that sorts out all of these details. For a ‘drug’ to be sold for treatment of hypogonadism, it would be expected that there was a clinical trial with older hypogonadic men. And for that group, one would exclude men who had testes that were not LH responsive… no AI or SERM will help them. They also would not respond to hCG. They would screen out any men who did not show an increase of serum T in response to a single injection of hCG to challenge the testes. They would also avoid any who were already on TRT without hCG as the testes would be in various states of degradation from HPTA shutdown.

The above clinical trials would also want to avoid those with low DHEA. If DHEA is low, this may be a limiting factor for the production of T.

You need to learn what research has therapeutic value and what does not. Research offered by someone selling an OTC really needs to be looked at carefully to know if it is of value. If someone simply states that research showed this or that, that does not mean that the product can be expected to be effective. And research is probably applicable to a ‘population’ that otherwise has a fully functional HPTA… not guys who have age related HPTA decline.

I am sure there is validity to what you are saying. However, just because Doctors aren’t prescribing something doesn’t mean anything. Doctors often prescribe what medicine is being pushed, or medicine they are familiar with. I do know of one Doctor that does prescribe estrogen blockers for low T-Levels quite successfully.

He had older patients with their testes the size of raisins from taking testosterone prescribed by their doctors. He is giving them only an estrogen blocker, and their testes have returned to normal and their T count is quite high. My friend (40 yrs old) had low T-Levels and went to the Doctor and they prescribed Testosterone. His T-Levels are now 350. My T-Levels were low (39 yrs old) and I took an estrogen blocker and my levels went to 1820.

I told him about my experience and he is going to try it, and that will give us more data. I know that is not enough research to support this, however, there are now clinical studies to disprove it either. I was very skeptical of the research published by the OTC company, and that is why I got tested to prove things.

I want to make it clear that I am not arguing with you, as I do not want to go back and forth. All I am saying is that we need more reseach done in this area. And rather than wait for it to be published, an older man with low T-levels who has been advised to take Testosterone, may want to try and estrogen blocker and get tested again after that. That is not too much to ask, right?

[quote]Greek Tarzan wrote:
I am sure there is validity to what you are saying. However, just because Doctors aren’t prescribing something doesn’t mean anything. Doctors often prescribe what medicine is being pushed, or medicine they are familiar with. I do know of one Doctor that does prescribe estrogen blockers for low T-Levels quite successfully.

He had older patients with their testes the size of raisins from taking testosterone prescribed by their doctors. He is giving them only an estrogen blocker, and their testes have returned to normal and their T count is quite high. My friend (40 yrs old) had low T-Levels and went to the Doctor and they prescribed Testosterone. His T-Levels are now 350. My T-Levels were low (39 yrs old) and I took an estrogen blocker and my levels went to 1820.

I told him about my experience and he is going to try it, and that will give us more data. I know that is not enough research to support this, however, there are now clinical studies to disprove it either. I was very skeptical of the research published by the OTC company, and that is why I got tested to prove things.

I want to make it clear that I am not arguing with you, as I do not want to go back and forth. All I am saying is that we need more reseach done in this area. And rather than wait for it to be published, an older man with low T-levels who has been advised to take Testosterone, may want to try and estrogen blocker and get tested again after that. That is not too much to ask, right?[/quote]

Interesing. Please keep us up to date on your findings.

And please be more specific than “estrogen blockers” These are AIs or SERMs? Long term use of SERMs can lead to serious side effects. And if something works as well as you suggest, someone in Congress or the DEA will make it illegal or highly controlled.

What are some side effects from long term use or SERMS, and do you think OTC SERMS like stinging nettle would also have side effects?

Both of the OTC estrogen blockers that I have had success with were AI’s (aromatase inhibitors).

The high end of normal T-Levels is around 1000 (generalization) and I got my T-levels to 1820, and I believe you can get them as high as 2,000 but not higher than that. Since men who don’t produce estrogen at all naturally, have T-levels at only at 2,000.

At a bodybuilding event T-levels were checked and the average T-level was 3,000, some men were at 10,000, one at 30,000, and one at 0(he just came off a bad cycle). So AI’s will never replace Prohormones or Steroids but they are a neat way to get your T-levels to normal. Going beyond normal levels is not healthy in the long run any way.

greek what specifically did you use for ai

This web site sells a great AI, REZ-V. I used a product not sold on this site, so I can’t mention it. Here are the ingredients. Proprietary Blend 60 mg*
[6, 17-keto-etiocholeve-3-ol tetrahydropyranol],
[3, 17-keto-etiochol-triene],
[3�??,5,7-trihydroxy-4�??-methoxyflavone]

I do want to metion that I am going to try REZ-V, as I suspect it will work even better, with less side effects. The AI that I used, does dry you out after a while(by removing estrogen from the joints), so you have to cycle or you will get joint pain. I don’t think this will happen with REZ-V.