[quote]Greek Tarzan wrote:
KSman wrote:
Just pointing out that guys with age related hypogonadism typically will not find that supplements will restore T levels to the point where there is a reversal of degeneration from low T. Reducing E2 feedback on the HPTA will not be enough. And hCG will often not do what is needed.
TRT docs have learned that to be effective, T levels need to be near [or above] lab upper ranges and they also know that lab ranges vary from lab to lab.
Mny OTC estrogen blockers (with tons of independant research) will raise T-Levels to over 1000, so I don’t understand what you are saying. However, I realize that you know more about this subject than I do, so I am trying to learn.[/quote]
Those studies are not done with old guys who are hypogonadic. They have low T because their pituitary or testes [or both] are not working well. If this were not so, then you would see doctors fixing hypogonadism with Arimidex. For aged hypogonadic guys, AIs will not get the AI levels needed and/or the testes are not working well anymore. “Estrogen blockers” are what? SERMs? AIs? That is not a very precise term.
The research papers are exploring how the body responds to a drug. These are not clinical trials to develop treatment. These research studies typically deliberately avoid guys who do not have things working normally. I am referring to research done with AIs or SERMs. I don’t think that any OTC products work as well as an AI or SERM. If so, those OTCs would be good for treating breast and other estrogen receptor positive cancers.
There is research on some things that block estrogen, where the mechanism of action is explored. The ‘drug’ studied is delivered by an IV injection. That is done to eliminate the effects of variability of absorption and first pass action of the liver, both of which are highly variable person to person. Some studies have shown interesting results for ‘drugs’ that are very poorly absorbed through the gut. These ‘drugs’ can be quite useless as an oral agent. Many products are sold hyping research for the a drug that effectively is useless because it cannot be absorbed. In this case, that is independent research for a ‘drug’ that has very little therapeutic action, or does work for some and many others cannot absorb through the gut. And some OTCs otherwise do not provide enough of an ‘drug’ to have any therapeutic value. What is needed is a clinical trial, that sorts out all of these details. For a ‘drug’ to be sold for treatment of hypogonadism, it would be expected that there was a clinical trial with older hypogonadic men. And for that group, one would exclude men who had testes that were not LH responsive… no AI or SERM will help them. They also would not respond to hCG. They would screen out any men who did not show an increase of serum T in response to a single injection of hCG to challenge the testes. They would also avoid any who were already on TRT without hCG as the testes would be in various states of degradation from HPTA shutdown.
The above clinical trials would also want to avoid those with low DHEA. If DHEA is low, this may be a limiting factor for the production of T.
You need to learn what research has therapeutic value and what does not. Research offered by someone selling an OTC really needs to be looked at carefully to know if it is of value. If someone simply states that research showed this or that, that does not mean that the product can be expected to be effective. And research is probably applicable to a ‘population’ that otherwise has a fully functional HPTA… not guys who have age related HPTA decline.
