T Nation

Very Experienced Beginner-Oral Cycle?

Hey Guys - I’ve been quietly reading lots of boards (especially this one) for the past six months and think I finally have enough info to join and ask my question the right way - a little patience, please…

I’m 5’8, fairly small-framed guy and currently weigh 165lb at 11% body fat. I’ve been seriously training (5x’s a week with a trainer - heavy weight, low-reps, compound work) for two years, and have been doing high-intensity workouts for about five years total. I started at 135lb and 16% body fat, so I’ve made lots of progress over the last couple of years.

I eat very, very clean: a decent amount of good carbs, lots (and lots) of protein, and low to very moderate fat intake. About 4000 calories daily, and do cardio for 30 min three times a week. With all my work over the past few years I really feel like I’ve gotten my body to its best natural point and have plateaued.

Although I’m not into competing or becoming a pro, I’d like to add about 10-15 more pounds of lean muscle, and think that gear might be a good next step for me to push beyond the wall I’ve hit naturally.

Two small hurdles: I work part-time in a gym, and any hint of me hitting the gear would not be taken very well - probably get fired. Also, I’m a diagnosed belonephobic (fear of needles).

Taking all this into consideration, I’m wondering if an all-oral fairly low-dose Winstrol/Primobolan cycle would give me the subtle gains I want without raising too many flags at work, and without giving me needle nightmares. I’d also like to get my fat down to about 8-9%, but that’s another conversation, I think.

I realize all-oral isn’t ideal for mass-gains or to begin to step-up to pro-type training - but for my goals and with my restraints I’d like to know what you think. I keep seeing the below oral Winstrol/Primobolan cycle all over the Internet - what are your thoughts? If you took time to read this, I HIGHLY appreciate your help…LittleRunt

Week 1 Winstrol 100 mg Primobolan 100 mg
Week 2 Winstrol 200 mg Primobolan 100 mg
Week 3 Winstrol 200 mg Primobolan 200 mg
Week 4 Winstrol 300 mg Primobolan 200 mg
Week 5 Winstrol 300 mg Primobolan 300 mg
Week 6 Winstrol 200 mg Primobolan 200 mg
Week 7 Winstrol 200 mg Primobolan 200 mg
Week 8 Winstrol 100 mg Primobolan 100 mg

I’ll let the guys who know something give you advice.

I’ll will throw in though, that with 6 years of training, you probably could have made more gains and you probably have not reached your genetic limit as you claim. Just my thoughts.

IMO i would forget the pyramid dosing. Also even at your highest point your doses seem too low.

You put on 30lb while dropping to a rather lean bodyfat in 2 years. You’re making very impressive progress at this rate. If I were you, I’d give it another year to see where your current potential leads you. Maybe you’ll find yourself at 180lb a year from now at 9% BF, who knows. If that were the case, you’d be doing better than most people do use AAS.

Keep up the good work.

[quote]littlerunt wrote:
I started at 135lb and 16% body fat, so I’ve made lots of progress over the last couple of years.

I eat very, very clean: a decent amount of good carbs, lots (and lots) of protein, and low to very moderate fat intake.
[/quote]

I think you should try switching up your diet and training before considering juice. The cycle you are contemplating probably won’t help you much anyway.

Look into the anabolic diet, and a training program specifically designed for skinny bastards.

Good luck :slight_smile:

I agree with Game. Dose is low, and the pyramid is unnecessary.

i agree with the above advice 165 prob. isnt your genetic limits
look into the two weekers if you really do use aas

Hey Guys - Thanks for the quick responses - very appreciated. Although I’m not in a rush, so I certainly can wait a while to see, but I do think I may be at or very close to my natural limit. I’ve come close to gaining 40 pounds and my workouts have been extremely heavy. And it’s getting really difficult to up the calories more than about 4000/day. I may wait a bit, but if I do choose to go the aas route sooner rather than later I’ll take your advice and won’t pyramid the dosage. I assume I should up the dosage, too. Any recommendations or changes to the Winstrol/Primo oral stack?

2 years of heavy lifting will not make you hit your genetic limit.

AAS won’t do amazing things for you if you can’t even consume 4000 calories a day. You must eat like a bear to really get the effects. Do you understand the way AAS affects nutrient use and why they even work?

It seems you know very little about the physiological mechanisms. I’m admittedly pretty uneducated about AAS, but I even know these things. You really need to read and research more in my opinion.

your fat intake is too low. You need to change this - take a look at Flameout, good fats, amazing epa/dha balance, you may find a reduction in bodyfat using this supp.
plus, more calories = more growth potential.
Just a thought.

I’ve thought about taking the fat up a little, so that’s definitely doable. I could also increase my calories by a mass gainer or something like that - up to around 6-7000+ calories. That may put me up 5-10 more pounds over the next 6-12 months. Honestly, after five+ years of gaining weight and really hard training I felt ready to take the next step to aas. I’m definitely not an expert on the scientific aspect of the whole process, which is why - among other reasons - a more hardcore cycle isn’t what I’m looking for. But I am doing tons and tons of research and talking to boards for advice and learning…so THANKS for all your thoughts…

Id definitely run 50mg ED of winstrol, thats what im planning on for the last part of my current cycle. as for oral primo im not real sure i know with injects its usually around 200-300mg E3D so you could probably go with 75 even 100mg ED if you wanted?

oral primo is poorly absorbed and you have to take a ton and it’s expensive. I would do winstrol/anadrol or dbol/anavar. If you don’t want to get “too big” too fast just use lower dosages.

Good info above guys, and thanks. If I do work on my needle fear and decide to try and move away from orals, I’ve had two people recommend this beginner cycle - thoughts? Don’t’ know much about it, so doing research on it right now…
wk 1-10 400mg Test Cyp.
wk 1-12 500iu HCG (twice a week/e3d)
wk 1-12 .25mg Arimidex
wk 12-17 .5mg Arimidex
wk 12-15 Clomid 100mg ED

I would get rid of the clomid and run a test taper at the end.

[quote]littlerunt wrote:
Good info above guys, and thanks. If I do work on my needle fear and decide to try and move away from orals, I’ve had two people recommend this beginner cycle -
[/quote]

There are several threads on here about injecting and first time fears. After your first injection you will think, “What the fuck was I so scared about”. Trust me, I wasn’t exactly thrilled the first time I loaded a syringe but now its just part of my morning routine.

[quote]littlerunt wrote:

wk 1-10 400mg Test Cyp.
wk 1-12 500iu HCG (twice a week/e3d)
wk 1-12 .25mg Arimidex
wk 12-17 .5mg Arimidex
wk 12-15 Clomid 100mg ED
[/quote]

Like 2the said read over the newbie threads they will get you going as far as the one you have listed i dont like a couple things, You’re using the HCG too long, you need to stop before your test is done. I also wouldnt start a-dex until i needed to.

Nice work with your 40lb muscle gain. Good progress. But I really really doubt you’ve hit your natural limit. Thibs has said before that he’s never seen anyone he’s trained at their natural limit (I don’t remember the article/thread). I think it would take at least a decade of solid training and diet to hit.

I met a guy once who was your height (5’7" actually) and 155 lb. He was a football guy in HS, used to training and had gained weight already. He discussed prohormone use with me since he knew I trained. I told him about T-Nation instead. Now he’s one of my best friends and 194 and lean. And gaining. Guess he wasn’t really at his natural limit after all. Turns out he needed to overhaul his training and nutrition.

Moral of the story is “Massive Eating” works and training overhauls work too. Just because gains are slow, doesn’t mean they’ve stopped. And just because they’ve stopped doesn’t mean your at your limit. It means you need to eat more. Anyway, if you decide to go to the dark side, listen to these vets here.