T Nation

Vertical: Just Doesn't Make Sense

[quote]MachineAZ wrote:
The biggest thing I have a hard time believing is that you squatted 465 for 10 reps at a little bodyweight of 185 lbs.

That puts your max, RAW, somewhere between 550 and 650, which means you ARE probably the strongest person EVER in the squat in the history of high school athletes at that bodyweight, possibly any bodyweight under 250 lbs.

Yeah, I believe you. Hahaha!

I never knew delivering newspapers lead to a big squat.

How’s that smith machine working for you? If you add up 4 1/4 squats does that equal 1 full squat?[/quote]

First off, I don’t think that 185 is “little” for 5’6", especially when most of it was muscle. You don’t have to believe me…BUT I stand by my numbers. Strength is genetic on BOTH sides of my family.
I don’t know what my max squat was because I NEVER tested it back then. For the first year of lifting I trained legs 2-3x a week and could leg press more than 800lbs by the end of the year for “good” reps. The first day I squatted in a gym, after more than a year of training, I squatted 315 for reps, ATG, no belt, AND I was 14. I’m guessing it was because of GOOD genes, a myriad of sports played, and heavy lifting on my legs. I don’t use the Smith machine except for shrugs.

Good genes? You should be world weightlifting/powerlifting champ by now come on dude!!!

[quote]ConorM wrote:
Good genes? You should be world weightlifting/powerlifting champ by now come on dude!!![/quote]

So there is no such thing as good genetics??? There are plenty of good athletes who aren’t world class powerlifting strong and vice versa. Look at all the studs at the NFL combine who put up freak numbers and don’t pan out or guys like Jerry Rice who are “slow” but still kick ass.

Had I known that my squat numbers were out of the ordinary, I probably would have pursued powerlifting. Had I not suffered numerous setbacks due to work/sports/car accident injuries, MAYVE I’d be freakishly strong…But I’m not, yet I still go to the gym, barring illness, week after week in hopes of improving my health, strength and appearance. I’d like to get back to my personal bests in all my lifts by the time I turn 30 next year, but only time will tell. I wasn’t posting to brag, just to give examples of 3 different people to show that EVERYONE’s athletic performance can’t be predicted by numbers alone.

sorry to hijack the thread, but it doesn seem a little suspicious, if not very suspicious that you could squat 465 x 10 with good form. If you feel the need to protect your ego, give us a video or picture. There are a shitload of people who did an assload of sports when they were younger. Those sports don’t really have a carry over to a big squat. Pretty much none of the activities you mentioned have a big carryover to the squat.

[quote]CoolColJ wrote:
rate ability…

you lack it…time to get it :slight_smile:

[/quote]

THER lIES THE KEY!!!

[quote]jsal33 wrote:
CoolColJ wrote:
rate ability…

you lack it…time to get it :slight_smile:

THER lIES THE KEY!!![/quote]

you guys sure?

the facts that his highest jumps are standing and his clean is half his deadlift suggest that he lacks rate, but the fact that his squat isn’t even 2x bodyweight yet he’s got such a high leap suggests that he’s rate dominant.

please explain.

Can you guys explain more about “rate”? What is it, and why do i have it here and not have it there? Damn my goofy self. Oh and I almost powercleaned a new pr of 225 the other day, I just missed it so I think I can get it so my max in that is probablly slower to 225.

he maybe doesn’t have the right muscles in the right places, like big/strong glutes/hams. And the thus the correct movement/firing patterns etc

what looks right, flies right as Charlie Francis would say :slight_smile:

see article

he has a high jump, so he has decent ability to fire maximally, although if he jumps with a lot of knee bend and a slow reversal rate that wouldn’t directly correlate to good sprinting ability

You only have such a short time period to apply force. And also having enough strength/stiffness in the lower legs and posterior chain to lock up so you can “skip” and bounce

sprinting is about being able to fire the muscles very quickly and to be able to relax them just as quickly - ie rate ability.

Is this power clean (from the ground), or hang clean?

dl-

This is a quote from a David Behm interview


Dr. Warren Young at the University of Ballarat in Australia has shown a strong correlation between sprinting speed and a ratio of vertical jump height and contact time. Athletes who could jump the highest with the shortest contact time typically could run the fastest and jump the highest. Some athletes may have great vertical jumps but develop their power from impulse (force exerted over time). A typical example might be a shot putter who can develop great power but may not have great sprinting speed. Thus, somehow short contact times must be developed to enhance the other half of the stride rate and stride length equation. Whereas reaction time would have a significant genetic component, contact times can be improved to a certain degree with low amplitude plyometrics. Quick foot and leg movements over low obstructions will not change the intrinsic contractile velocity of the muscle fibers, but will improve the co-ordination of the athlete to activate and relax the appropriate prime movers, synergists and antagonists to allow them to traverse the ground at a greater speed

[quote]and1bball4mk wrote:
Can you guys explain more about “rate”? What is it, and why do i have it here and not have it there? Damn my goofy self. Oh and I almost powercleaned a new pr of 225 the other day, I just missed it so I think I can get it so my max in that is probablly slower to 225. [/quote]

rate of force developement (RFD).

on the force/velocity curve force is the maximal tension that can be reached regardless of time (heavy lifting), and velocity is the maximal tension that can be reached in the shortest amount of time (throwing light stuff).

you dont necessarily have it ‘here and not there.’ coolj and jsal seem to think that you’re lacking rate, i think that may be wrong. i want them to clarify why they think you’re lacking rate.

try hop on and off a 6inch step, trying for max reps in 10secs

if you have trouble doing that smoothly and easily then you need to work on your rate ability. Which will in turn help your sprint ability if that’s what your lacking.

I get in 18 hops in 10secs doing the hop thing. And cranked out 5+ strides a second when I sprinted recently - according to my video.
I used to be very bad at that drill, but when I got better, I got way faster as well :slight_smile:

I also jump with a very low impulse times, shallow knee bend and very short reversal times now. There is probably a correlation in all of these as far as basic CNS firing characteristics goes

So wait…was it your newspaper delivery schedule or climbing up stairs that gave you an unbelieveable 465 for 10 full squat?

Or maybe it was your 10+ years of gymnastics, soccer, baseball, swimming (all of which would not build powerful legs, low back, or anything needed for a big squat)?

Or maybe it is your genetics?

Yeah, your genetics definitely made you lie on the internet about your squat.

Feel better now?

See the fast vs. slow SSC comment I made above; this is the same stuff.

[quote]CoolColJ wrote:
This is a quote from a David Behm interview


Dr. Warren Young at the University of Ballarat in Australia has shown a strong correlation between sprinting speed and a ratio of vertical jump height and contact time. Athletes who could jump the highest with the shortest contact time typically could run the fastest and jump the highest. Some athletes may have great vertical jumps but develop their power from impulse (force exerted over time). A typical example might be a shot putter who can develop great power but may not have great sprinting speed. Thus, somehow short contact times must be developed to enhance the other half of the stride rate and stride length equation. Whereas reaction time would have a significant genetic component, contact times can be improved to a certain degree with low amplitude plyometrics. Quick foot and leg movements over low obstructions will not change the intrinsic contractile velocity of the muscle fibers, but will improve the co-ordination of the athlete to activate and relax the appropriate prime movers, synergists and antagonists to allow them to traverse the ground at a greater speed[/quote]

I’m in Connecticut as well, and if you’d like to come down to South Side Gym in Stratford, we’d be happy to verify this squat. We squat Wednesdays and Sundays, but you can come in any time.

Dudes, he said that he was tough in his youth. Now he is closing in on 30. He ‘used’ to be badass.

I wouldn’t even bother calling him. Just bring out the tubesteak.

So anyone got any tips on what todo? Mabye plyo’s and just keep squating or something else? Thanks for all the help

wufu wrote

you dont necessarily have it ‘here and not there.’ coolj and jsal seem to think that you’re lacking rate, i think that may be wrong. i want them to clarify why they think you’re lacking rate.

Cool was not refering to rate of force I am pretty sure he was refering to rate in this context

“Neuro-rate(speed)- This is movement associated with the quickest neural rate and transmission. Examples of neuro-rate movements are tapping the hands and feet as fast as possible, cycling the legs, and other movements that require speed above all else.”
Exercise like hopping back and forth over cones keeping the upper body stationary. Getting in a pushup or squat position on a trampoline and moving the hands and feet as fast as possible or hopping keeping the upper body stationary are other examples.

Speed as in a sprint is comprised of both neuro-magnitude and neuro-rate capacities. Neuro-magnitude would be the level of force you put into the ground with each stride (magnitude of force). Neuro-rate would be the speed at which your limbs move (stride rate).

[quote]MachineAZ wrote:
So wait…was it your newspaper delivery schedule or climbing up stairs that gave you an unbelieveable 465 for 10 full squat?

Or maybe it was your 10+ years of gymnastics, soccer, baseball, swimming (all of which would not build powerful legs, low back, or anything needed for a big squat)?

Or maybe it is your genetics?

Yeah, your genetics definitely made you lie on the internet about your squat.

Feel better now?

[/quote]

Classic.

Doesn’t matter anyways, when I was in high school I was 4’2" 500 lbs and I could dunk, eat 20 hamburgers in one sitting, and once threw a walk-in freezer 45 feet.

I’m the exact opposite. I can run a 4.4 forty, but can barely even touch the rim of a basketball net.