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Vertical Diet - Stan Efferding


Then it’s a good thing I don’t have bedtime pasta!


How about barley? Sometimes I’ll substitute barley for rice just for a little change up, and it seems to work great. Big rise in energy levels and just a general “good” feeling.


Great discussion going in here!


Stan, me and also Bill Roberts https://forums.t-nation.com/u/bill_roberts/summary
@Bill_Roberts for all practical purposes.

The soy, corn and wheat industries are huge lobbies. They basically got permission from the government to call anything that lowers cholesterol “heart healthy”, and oils that lower cholesterol “heart healthy oils”. Since linoleic acid (pathologically IMO) lowers serum cholesterol levels it can be called heart healthy.

The ACA and AMA had to relent to research about 2 years ago, and agreed that there would be no dietary fat intake limit anymore since dietary fat intake (independent of calories) does not correlate to reduced health. They also agreed to eliminate a limit on saturated fat intake which does not have an independent correlation to coronary artery disease, and for the most part, they have decided to stop looking at total cholesterol as a marker of anything. You can be perfectly healthy with a blood cholesterol of 250 and 140 can be a sign that you are on death’s door.

Part of the relent has come from the fact that vegetable oils had gotten subsidies as bio diesel fuels, meaning that the corn and soy industry didn’t need to sell us upwards of 100 million kilograms of corn and soybean oil a year to get their pay day (despite the fact that bio fuels don’t reduce emissions but heck, they’re not big oil).


I’m starting to think you are right about this. From a Canadian government page:

The Renewable Fuels Regulations, published on September 1, 2010 in the Canada Gazette, Part II, require an average renewable fuel content of five per cent in gasoline starting December 15, 2010.
The Regulations include provisions that govern the creation of compliance units, allowing trading of these units among participants and also require recordkeeping and reporting to ensure compliance.

Anyone with half a brain who reads about this stuff knows that this is pure bullshit but just like in the USSR, facts don’t matter to the Canadian government.


Based on what you know, is there a safe level of intake for vegetable oils (canola, corn, soy, etc.) or should they be avoided completely?


There is a safe level. Omega 6 is essential, but you only need about 3 grams a day for optimal health which would be about a teaspoon full, but since pigs and chickens get fattened up on soy and corn (which contain those oils) they get high concentrations of omega 6 in their fat. Same with grain finished beef, eggs, milk. Plus you get it in fish, and trace in veggies, and even enough in olive oil. There is no evidence of harms below about 6-8 grams of omega 6 a day and the high linoleic oils are bout 60% linoleic. Oh, there is another caveat. If you are burning more calories than you are taking in, you will burn up the omega 6 largely as it is being ingested. An ounce of nuts will hit your LA optimal level.

High oleic safflower oil is almost all mono-unsaturated though. Same with macadamia, avocado and olive oil. If you want to cook something in an oil that tastes like corn oil, use high oleic safflower. It is also much harder to burn.

I eat at a restaurant that uses canola oil in some dishes. I don’t order those very often. Canola is not high in omega 6 but has other possible toxins. The jury may be out on Canola but I can tell when I’ve eaten it now.


Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

Most of what I eat I cook myself at home, depending on what I’m cooking I use either canola, coconut, or olive oil. As far as I’m concerned, the canola, corn, and soybean oils that sell here all taste basically the same. Soybean oil has a particular smell when it’s heated close to burning but I never buy it anyway. At one time I was using peanut oil rather than canola, etc., because I was trying to stay away from GMOs but at some point I was sold on the idea of more omega 3 and figured that a little bit of canola oil won’t kill me. Based on what you’re saying, there is probably nothing to worry about.

Next question: what about wheat? Are there only negative effects if you eat lots of it on a regular basis? Does this vary from person to person? Are there other commonly eaten starches that should be avoided? I always figure that the anti-wheat propaganda was a product of the gluten-free/overpriced health food industry, perhaps there is more to it.


I missed this part, you edited the post after I read it. This pretty much answers my question, unless you have more to add to it.

This whole grain stuff is complete nonsense. Wheat and gluten aside, if you look at the nutritional facts for white bread or white rice vs. the brown/whole versions there is almost no difference in fibre, maybe 1-2g per serving. If the majority of fibre in your diet comes from bread and rice then your diet is fucked.


People who eat more wheat tend to have greater intestinal permeability which allows in antigens and pathogens and also correlates to poor gut flora and fungal overgrowth. Susceptibility is highly genetic. Scandinavians tend to react worst to wheat. Middle eastern Europeans tend to do very well. They have more genes that code for starch using enzymes.

Psylium fiber also causes leaky gut. The main benefits of fiber are that they feed intestinal bacteria which in turn transforms the fiber into short chain saturated fatty acids, primarily butyrate. Psylium is not a good food source for gut bacteria. Cellulose, Resistance starch and pectin are.

I thought the same about wheat and gluten free. It turned out to be an unfortunate coincidence. One group was making big money from GF foods even though gluten itself only has significant interactions in a small proportion of the population. Next to wheat, other grains are less inflammatory and the hierarchy may vary for different individuals.

Just speaking for myself, my assumption has been that if a food interferes with sleep, or tends to trigger strong food cravings, I cut it out. Wheat, beans, oats, cornmeal affect my sleep and also throw off my natural sense of hunger-making me hungry when I don’t need calories and making it harder to sense what nutrients I need. I lose self regulation ability when I eat them, or too much dairy or fructose. When I cut wheat, cornmeal, oats, beans, dairy (butter and cheese are ok) and desert items, my body self regulates calorie intake.


Can you clarify this part:

I’m mostly Polish and Slovenian, I’m hoping I can still get away with eating wheat.


Sorry, I meant middle eastern and central asians.


The thing is, regarding eating wheat. If you don’t have a problem then I wouldn’t look for a solution. If you have sinusitis, asthma, allergies, gut sensitivity, feel like wheat leads to an addictive response then it would be my first recommendation to cut.

I don’t think anybody should eat soybean or corn oil. Canola may be fine, but its no better than macadamia, avocado or olive oil and if does have traces of erucic acid. They attempt to remove all of the erucic acid because it causes lesions in the heart, but they only get out about 98%. That may be good enough, I don’t know but i have other options that I prefer anyway.


Sounds like I’m out of luck. In Eastern Europe the main carb source was rye until potatoes were brought over, I imagine I should be able to digest rye more easily but I don’t really care for it.

Yeah, I don’t have any of those issue. However, my wife recently got asthma, she never had any respiratory problems until a couple months ago.

I eat wheat mostly because it’s convenient, I like it but I could live without it. I most days my breakfast includes bread, for lunch I had steak with pasta because I didn’t want to cook a pot of rice for myself. I suppose I will keep doing what I’m doing.

That doesn’t sound good at all. What about the fact that all refined oils are treated with hexane, I heard some health food fanatics talking about that a while back and Stan Efferding mentioned the same thing. Is that something to be concerned about?


I wanted to emphasize a point, in case I didn’t do so in my prior posts. The critical issue with growth hormone is that most of it is secreted in the first 2-4 hours of sleep, typically before midnight. Insulin blocks GH, so if there is one time in the day that it is most essential to have low insulin levels, it is in the first 2-4 hours of sleep. If you don’t get your early sleep GH, you accumulate micro trauma and chronic inflammation rises. That inflammation requires cortisol to reduce. The cortisol causes insulin resistance. The insulin resistance means you secrete more insulin in the first 2-4 hours of sleep and block even more GH.


OK, you mentioned before that casein doesn’t do much in terms of increasing insulin levels but in light of what you say here is there still a strong possibility that casein before bed is a bad idea?

One of my kids always wants a snack before bed, usually cereal (plain cheerios). He doesn’t usually eat a lot during the day, he just doesn’t have a big appetite and is on the skinny side but not unhealthy or anything. Is the bedtime snack a potential problem even if he isn’t really at risk for diabetes or obesity? Sorry if I’m asking too much questions but it seems like you know a lot more than me about this stuff and there is a lot of conflicting information on anything related to nutrition, so far it looks like you have data to back up everything you have said so I would trust your opinion.


I will have to check, but growing kids have different cycles of cortisol, and GH release. When kids start to grow, they basically release GH all the time. I do not think that the early sleep window for GH is as big a deal during childhood growth and development. For an adult, if you are overfat then it is important to get insulin low before sleep. If you are not overfat, then eating before bed doesn’t have the negative consequences because you are probably not insulin resistant to begin with. Gaining muscle-eat before bed. Losing fat, don’t, however the issue with low GI carbs was not just that they stimulated some insulin, but that they stimulated insulin in excess of their nutritional content by stimulating blood sugar raising hormones like glucagon, cortisol and possibly adrenaline.


Feigenbaum learned assholism from the best (Rip aka God)


He did a podcast or something the other day with Mike Tuchscherer, Mike is mostly alright in my book but you might remember a few years ago he wrote an article about how speed work doesn’t work (the title was something like that) and caused a bunch of shit.

He has since changed his stance on speed work and started using some of Josh Bryant’s methods, but there was an article on EliteFTS that called him out on the speed work thing and made me realize what the plan was. As they say, any publicity is good publicity and he brought a lot of attention to himself which resulted in a lot of coaching clients. So many that he had to hire assistant coaches, when previously he was working alone and nowhere near full capacity.

Apparently Feigenbaum has been coached by Mike for several years, perhaps in more than just lifting. He wrote something a while back about how 5/3/1 is inferior to his unique training methods because of a lack of volume and frequency, seemingly oblivious of the fact that 5/3/1 offers many different templates with varying volume and frequency. He is a guy who wants to make a name for himself by criticizing others. You could say I’m doing the same, but I’m not looking for any recognition and just trying to expose the pieces of shit for what they are.


In my experience managing kids’ weight and dogs’ weight is super uncomplicated (compared to managing your own weight). They can’t feed themselves early on so you meter out everything they eat. Are the kids ribs too visible? Make them eat more (or throw in glasses of whole milk). Is the kid starting a gut? Dial back the portion sides. It’s so simple because their little metabolisms aren’t damaged yet.

If your kid isn’t fat then the late night cheerios aren’t hurting him.