T Nation

Velocity Diet & Running?

Hi there,

I hope/think this is probably the right message board on which to ask this question. It’s a nutrition/exercise query.

I’m starting the V-diet once the supplements arrive - I’m slightly nervous but looking forward to it.

The question - Do people think that a 6 mile run in the morning two-three times per week to replace the walk on those respective days will be (a) too much to handle on the diet and/or (b) too catabolic an exercise to maintain muscle mass?

I enjoy running and would like to continue to be able to run this distance comfortably, but my primary goal on this diet is fat loss?

If you think it’s necessary to have this information to answer the question, I just turned 25, am 5’11’’ and weigh 182 pounds at 15% body fat. So, pretty much, your average guy who played sports at school and college and has carried on keeping relatively fit (by normal people standards) since leaving college. I ran the New York Marathon in November 2006.

Any help would be appreciated on this question.

Thanks.

Not a good choice if keeping your muscle is high priority you are on a server calorie deficite and extreme diet Id stick to the walks.

Phill

I would listen to this man, I have been reading a lot of posts from him about nutrition and he seems to be on the money.

Congratulations on your Marathon!

Mandy

I am so glad you asked this question. I just started the velocity diet today and was wondering the same thing.

How about doing a light 30 min jog followed by Surge?

[quote]omp1981 wrote:
The question - Do people think that a 6 mile run in the morning two-three times per week to replace the walk on those respective days will be (a) too much to handle on the diet and/or (b) too catabolic an exercise to maintain muscle mass?[/quote]

A six mile run under any circumstance is too catabolic. Unless you are training to be a long distance runner (which you apparently are, given the marathons) for an upcoming race, I would definitely skip it during the v-diet. You should focus 100% of your intention on the V-Diet and follow it exactly so you’ll get all of the benefits. Why mess around with the formula and set yourself up to fail off the bat?

One thing I don’t understand- how is it if you train for and run marathons you feel you have enough fat on you that you even need to do the V-Diet? This isn’t a casual diet for casual dieters.

So you’re somewhat skinny-fat and you’re looking for the v-diet to fix this. Not bad I guess, just keep in mind it’s the running that caused you to get this way in the first place. If you plan on continuing running you’re going to just end up a smaller version of the exact shape you are right now.

This isn’t intended to be negative towards running in general. It’s just amazing to me that people who are serious runners, without the genetics to be naturally lean, are ignorant to what caused them to be skinny-fat and think that by doing even more running they will get in better shape.

My suggestions stand that you should knock off the running while on the V-diet and concentrate on improving your body composition. Then when you get back to running you’ll be leaner and hopefully be able to keep that way.

[quote]kluecker wrote:
I am so glad you asked this question. I just started the velocity diet today and was wondering the same thing.

How about doing a light 30 min jog followed by Surge?[/quote]

Also not a good idea. What gives you the idea that Surge is going to do anything to repair the damage done by a long bout of steady-state cardio?

You don’t really have much muscle, so run your little heart out.

[quote]omp1981 wrote:
I enjoy running and would like to continue to be able to run this distance comfortably, but my primary goal on this diet is fat loss?
[/quote]

Is that a question? The V-Diet is a fat loss only plan.

If you lose the fat, I think you’ll find it easier to run that distance.

If running is a priority then I’d either 1) avoid the V-Diet altogether or 2) try switching to a few sprints every day instead. The sprints might be short enough to avoid catabolism and raise your metabolism and keep your VO2 max up.

The sprints are just a theory. Somebody else might be able to elaborate.

[quote]eengrms76 wrote:

A six mile run under any circumstance is too catabolic. Unless you are training to be a long distance runner (which you apparently are, given the marathons) for an upcoming race, I would definitely skip it during the v-diet. You should focus 100% of your intention on the V-Diet and follow it exactly so you’ll get all of the benefits. Why mess around with the formula and set yourself up to fail off the bat?[/quote]

Actually I did the marathon to raise money for charity, not because I’m training to be a serious long distance runner.

[quote]eengrms76 wrote:
One thing I don’t understand- how is it if you train for and run marathons you feel you have enough fat on you that you even need to do the V-Diet? This isn’t a casual diet for casual dieters.[/quote]

I only trained for one marathon, as stated above. Training for a marathon involves running significantly further than six miles two or three times per week. The question was purely whether this form of exercise was maintainable/advisable on the V-Diet. I think 16% bodyfat is enough fat to warrant trying to lose it.

[quote]eengrms76 wrote:
So you’re somewhat skinny-fat and you’re looking for the v-diet to fix this. Not bad I guess, just keep in mind it’s the running that caused you to get this way in the first place. If you plan on continuing running you’re going to just end up a smaller version of the exact shape you are right now.[/quote]

I’m not sure if you can properly assess the reasons for me being skinny-fat without any knowledge of my exercise background or eating habits, but that’s your bag. I was in better shape before I started training for the marathon but, as stated above, I was doing it to raise money for charity, so the detriment to my health for that period of time seemed to be a reasonable sacrifice.

The amount of rest time recommended by the majority of literature I read leading up to marathon is that you should take at least a month off exercise having finished your first race, so the muscle lost training for the marathon was compounded by the big meals of the holidays period. This is why I’m starting off with the V-Diet in January. I intend to get rid of the fat before adding muscle.

I know this is a bit of a contentious topic in the fora at the moment, but the science behind Christian Thibaudeau’s piece on bulking makes sense to me, which is why I’m following this method. Particularly as I’m not genetically predisposed to being particularly lean.

[quote]eengrms76 wrote:
This isn’t intended to be negative towards running in general. It’s just amazing to me that people who are serious runners, without the genetics to be naturally lean, are ignorant to what caused them to be skinny-fat and think that by doing even more running they will get in better shape.[/quote]

I’m not sure I appreciate the use of the word “ignorant”. As I said in my original post, the reason I was keen to maintain running while on the diet was because I enjoy it, not some ill-advised belief that by continually running I would somehow get down to single-digit bodyfat.

The received wisdom appears to be that you should stick to the letter of the diet whilst on it, which is what I intend to do. Thank you for your responses.

[quote]yorik wrote:
omp1981 wrote:
I enjoy running and would like to continue to be able to run this distance comfortably, but my primary goal on this diet is fat loss?

Is that a question? The V-Diet is a fat loss only plan.

[/quote]

Not question, sorry. A non-proofread punctuation error. It should be a full stop.

[quote]omp1981 wrote:
yorik wrote:
omp1981 wrote:
I enjoy running and would like to continue to be able to run this distance comfortably, but my primary goal on this diet is fat loss?

Is that a question? The V-Diet is a fat loss only plan.

Not question, sorry. A non-proofread punctuation error. It should be a full stop. [/quote]

Last year I tried the V-Diet. While I was on it I did some intense cardio one day and ended up throwing up (just water). I felt dizzy, lightheaded, etc. I think it’s a bad idea to combine the V-Diet and long runs. I don’t think runners are the intended audience for that diet.

[quote]omp1981 wrote:
Actually I did the marathon to raise money for charity, not because I’m training to be a serious long distance runner.[/quote]

Well I didn’t know that. Most runners don’t do just one marathon. My assumptions were based on the fact I thought you were a serious runner who routinely ran marathons. I figured that would be obvious by my comments.

So the idea that you want to continue running is based on what?

This is a fairly flawed thought process. Spend some time reading articles on this site (and if you’re going to read the Truth About Bulking article, make sure you actually understand CT’s intentions with that one) and you’ll see most people who are successful at this game do it in the opposite order.

You should pay attention to the use of the word ignorant in the context of the sentence. It was not intended to mean you are ignorant, just that the idea that running is the cause in the first place is not an apparent thought of runners. It has nothing to do with actually being ignorant. Words have lots of meanings and uses.

Whatever you decide to do- good luck. Just keep in mind that it is a very well known fact that people who make modifications to the V-Diet fail it. They may lose some weight, but not to the degree they could have and they typically lose out on all of the other benefits. Usually the mods are nutrition-wise, but exercise mods are equally fatal. I know. It happened to me the first time around.

This is turning into an unnecessary to and fro, but here are my responses to your post:

[quote]eengrms76 wrote:
omp1981 wrote:
Actually I did the marathon to raise money for charity, not because I’m training to be a serious long distance runner.

Well I didn’t know that. Most runners don’t do just one marathon. My assumptions were based on the fact I thought you were a serious runner who routinely ran marathons. I figured that would be obvious by my comments.[/quote]

It was obvious by your comments, which is why I thought it necessary to clear the situation up. Perhaps I should have left out the fact that I ran a marathon as it seems to have given the wrong impression. I put it in there because people often ask for further information on these threads when someone posts their original question. I thought it might be relevant. I’m actually a rugby player.

[quote]eengrms76 wrote:
I was in better shape before I started training for the marathon

So the idea that you want to continue running is based on what?[/quote]

As I thought was clear on my original post, which I then expressly stated in my first response to your post: because I enjoy running.

Also, I found that training for a marathon put me into bad shape because of the long runs you need to complete each weekend, rather than the relatively short 6 milers, to which I was referring in my original post. Either way, I’m going to take both yours and the other people’s advice and stick to the prescribed cardio of the V-Diet.

[quote]eengrms76 wrote:
I intend to get rid of the fat before adding muscle.

This is a fairly flawed thought process. Spend some time reading articles on this site (and if you’re going to read the Truth About Bulking article, make sure you actually understand CT’s intentions with that one) and you’ll see most people who are successful at this game do it in the opposite order.[/quote]

I think CT makes a number of points in his article. The two in particular to which I am referring is that it is unnecessary to be above 10% body fat and being lean makes it easier to stay lean and to gain muscle through better nutrient partitioning. Getting fatter makes it easier to gain more fat and harder to lose it.

As I said, I’m at 16% body fat right now, so I think it’s pretty reasonable for me to take this approach before trying to make gradual gains over time, as per the article. I realise that a lot of people have success by bulking and then cutting, but my guess is that they tend to start from a leaner point in the first place.

I think the overwhelming message that comes across from the articles on this site is that different things work for different people and each person needs to see what works for them, using this site as a guiding tool and a forum for discussion. This is what I’m planning on doing. If it doesn’t seem to be working out over the course of a year - I’ll try something different.

[quote]eengrms76 wrote:
Words have lots of meanings and uses.[/quote]

Thanks for Vocab 101. You can come down off your pedastal. There’s really no need to patronize me.

[quote]eengrms76 wrote:
Whatever you decide to do- good luck. Just keep in mind that it is a very well known fact that people who make modifications to the V-Diet fail it. They may lose some weight, but not to the degree they could have and they typically lose out on all of the other benefits. Usually the mods are nutrition-wise, but exercise mods are equally fatal. I know. It happened to me the first time around.[/quote]

As I said before, I’m going to follow the diet to the letter. I appreciate your good wishes, and I’ll let you know how it goes.

[quote]omp1981 wrote:
This is turning into an unnecessary to and fro, but here are my responses to your post:[/quote]

I’m sorry I was under the impression you wanted to discuss your situation. Why did you create this thread then if you didn’t?

This is exactly the points that made his article suck. He has even since clarified that he threw the 10% number out there just as an example. If you’re at 16% BF without much muscle there is absolutely no reason to cut at this point. I’m not saying don’t do the v-diet- there are many other benefits to it that can help you regardless (the taste changes being number 1).

I don’t understand this comment. Who told you to get fatter? Is that your idea of building muscle? Getting fat?

And you would be wrong.

If that’s what you think I was doing then I apologize- I was just trying to clarify that you can use words for their other meanings even if the traditional meaning is insulting. I also know you knew that, but still felt the need to point it out.

I can’t be bothered to humour you any further. I opened the thread to ask a simple question, which was answered succinctly by Phill within a couple of hours (thanks very much for that Phill, if you’re still reading).

If you’re planning on sending another message along the lines of “if you’re not open to debate, then you’re not on the right website to make these posts”, then don’t trouble yourself - unless, of course, you’re incapable of not having the last word, in which case, go right ahead.

[quote]omp1981 wrote:
I can’t be bothered to humour you any further. I opened the thread to ask a simple question, which was answered succinctly by Phill within a couple of hours (thanks very much for that Phill, if you’re still reading).

If you’re planning on sending another message along the lines of “if you’re not open to debate, then you’re not on the right website to make these posts”, then don’t trouble yourself - unless, of course, you’re incapable of not having the last word, in which case, go right ahead. [/quote]

It’s not a matter of humoring me or me getting the last word. I was actually trying to help you as you are obviously clueless.

[quote]eengrms76 wrote:
omp1981 wrote:
unless, of course, you’re incapable of not having the last word, in which case, go right ahead.

eengrms76 wrote:
It’s not a matter of humoring me or me getting the last word. I was actually trying to help you as you are obviously clueless.[/quote]

Quod erat faciendum.

[quote]omp1981 wrote:
eengrms76 wrote:
omp1981 wrote:
unless, of course, you’re incapable of not having the last word, in which case, go right ahead.

eengrms76 wrote:
It’s not a matter of humoring me or me getting the last word. I was actually trying to help you as you are obviously clueless.

Quod erat faciendum.[/quote]

lol.

Good one. Regardless of our argument I sincerely do wish you the best of luck. That was my intention all along.

Thanks very much. I’ll let you know how it goes.