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[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
waylanderxx wrote:
Have fun being weak
Not true. Mahler military presses 88-pound kettlebells for reps and snatches the 97-pounder for reps. [/quote]
So out of all these thousands of vegan bodybuilders you imply there are, this is the second strongest guy you could name?
Those lifts are absolutely flat ordinary for a meat eater.
Ok Chris so The pinnacle of vegan/vegetarian bodybuilding is pressing 88 lbs? I use 110 dumb bells for reps and I’m 19. I don’t find the 88 lbs very impressive.
What this boils down to is lets do our own little research project:
Take one guy feed him only steak/chicken/potatoes for 10 weeks and chart his progress.
Take another guy and feed him salads/legumes/v8 juice (steroids have nothing on this stuff!)and chart his progress.
Lets see who makes the best gains.
And my PWO example makes perfect sense. Vegans or w/e choose to eat a certain way at the expense of gains, the same could be said with the PWO shake.
I don’t care how many people follow this silly practice, they just jumped on the band wagon of the “new, ethical, environmentally friendly, and super healthy diet!” Why are there no IFBB pro vegan bodybuilders? And if there is one(and if there is there will only be ONE) please correct me.
I saw a True Life episode about a vegan bodybuilder and it was pathetic.
Im not trying to be a jerk, I just don’t see the point in defending this practive.
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
So out of all these thousands of vegan bodybuilders you imply there are, this is the second strongest guy you could name? [/quote]
Nowhere did I say they were the two strongest out there. They’re two guys that I could more readily find. If I invested even more time into looking up examples, I’m sure I could find more, but I feel I’ve provided sufficient poof so far… of course, every one I provide seems to either get overlooked or brushed aside as being average.
[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
Ok Chris so The pinnacle of vegan/vegetarian bodybuilding is pressing 88 lbs? I use 110 dumb bells for reps and I’m 19. I don’t find the 88 lbs very impressive.[/quote]
I said kettlebells, not dumbbells. World of difference, like comparing tee ball to baseball.
[quote]Take one guy feed him only steak/chicken/potatoes for 10 weeks and chart his progress.
Take another guy and feed him salads/legumes/v8 juice (steroids have nothing on this stuff!)and chart his progress.
Lets see who makes the best gains.[/quote]
No.
Once again, you’re comparing apples and oranges. (Pun intended, because if you can’t keep a sense of humor during an online debate, you’ll want to kick a puppy in the teeth.)
Take a 200-pound meat-eating guy who lifts heavy and consistently, while eating 4,500 calories, 250 grams of protein, 600 grams of carbs, and 120 grams of fat.
Compare his results to a 200-pound vegetarian guy who lifts heavy and consistently, while eating 4,500 calories, 250 grams of protein, 600 grams of carbs, and 120 grams of fat.
That’s a fair comparison.
It doesn’t make sense, because you suggested dropping the shake entirely. Smart vegans who want serious results will find suitable replacements for the nutrients normally provided by meat sources.
Al Beckles, one of the longest competing pros, may have been a vegetarian (I’ve read conflicting reports, but most say he was.) Andreas Cahling was a successful vegetarian pro in the 80s. Roy Hilligenn (the vegan with the “average” 375 clean and jerk) was a successful bodybuilder in the 50s. Joe DeMarco, a vegan at 150 pounds, has a body that I’m certain many members here would consider jacked.
I spend a few minutes to research successful vegetarian and vegan athletes and coaches, you cite an MTV episode. Awesome.
You’re not coming off as a jerk, and I don’t think I am either. But if everyone trained the same and ate the same, what would there be to talk about, really?
I hate to be “that guy” who leaves a thread in the middle of a discussion, but I really feel things are just going to go around in circles.
A topic like this is along the same lines as the high volume trainers who rag on the HIT guys, the powerlifters who rag on the bodybuilders’ abs, and the low carb dieters that rag on the V-Dieters.
Unfortunately, it’s a no-win situation all around because there are lots of roads that lead to the same goal, in training and in nutrition.
So, I’ve laid a bunch of my points on the table, and I respectfully tap out of this conversation.
of course it’s possible. what do cows eat? other cows? haha. it’s important to keep in mind that the body is very adaptive, but adapting to a (food) environment doesn’t mean that environment is ideal, especially if you are a bodybuilder and need lots of protein.
life evolved from simple organisms that obtained amino acids from their environment. over time, different pathways for obtaining amino acids evolved. we evolved from a common ancestor with monkeys, and they eat mostly plants. more optimal pathways for obtaining amino acids (i.e., from meat) have since evolved, but the old ones are still in place. redundancy is common within the body, just in case. otherwise, most westerners, with their shitty diets, would be dead.
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
And not likely get blown by anything else.[/quote]
Hairdryer?
[quote]oark wrote:
of course it’s possible. what do cows eat? other cows? haha. it’s important to keep in mind that the body is very adaptive, but adapting to a (food) environment doesn’t mean that environment is ideal, especially if you are a bodybuilder and need lots of protein.
life evolved from simple organisms that obtained amino acids from their environment. over time, different pathways for obtaining amino acids evolved. we evolved from a common ancestor with monkeys, and they eat mostly plants.
more optimal pathways for obtaining amino acids (i.e., from meat) have since evolved, but the old ones are still in place. redundancy is common within the body, just in case. otherwise, most westerners, with their shitty diets, would be dead.[/quote]
Are you saying the pathways for the body to synthesize its own phenylalanine, leucine, isoleucine, valine, threonine, tryptophan, methionine, and lysine still exist in man?
They do not.
If any of these is not much present in a given plant-based diet, then the body does not have much of it. There are no, referring to pathways, “old ones still in place” that can change that. Only consuming foods having better amounts of these amino acids can change the amounts available to the body. Not “pathways.”
Plants still have them, bacteria still have them, fungi still have them, perhaps some vertebrates do, but man does not.
As for monkeys, the fact that they do well on less of given amino acids may not indicate that they synthesize them themselves (I simply don’t know on that): it might simply be that they, not having much of them available, have evolved to need for very little of them, conserving them closely,
whereas as they have generally been available to man, we are not so sparing in what amounts are best for us.
Note to self, never argue with Bill Roberts.
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
oark wrote:
of course it’s possible. what do cows eat? other cows? haha. it’s important to keep in mind that the body is very adaptive, but adapting to a (food) environment doesn’t mean that environment is ideal, especially if you are a bodybuilder and need lots of protein.
life evolved from simple organisms that obtained amino acids from their environment. over time, different pathways for obtaining amino acids evolved. we evolved from a common ancestor with monkeys, and they eat mostly plants.
more optimal pathways for obtaining amino acids (i.e., from meat) have since evolved, but the old ones are still in place. redundancy is common within the body, just in case. otherwise, most westerners, with their shitty diets, would be dead.
Are you saying the pathways for the body to synthesize its own phenylalanine, leucine, isoleucine, valine, threonine, tryptophan, methionine, and lysine still exist in man?
They do not.
If any of these is not much present in a given plant-based diet, then the body does not have much of it. There are no, referring to pathways, “old ones still in place” that can change that. Only consuming foods having better amounts of these amino acids can change the amounts available to the body. Not “pathways.”
Plants still have them, bacteria still have them, fungi still have them, perhaps some vertebrates do, but man does not.
As for monkeys, the fact that they do well on less of given amino acids may not indicate that they synthesize them themselves (I simply don’t know on that): it might simply be that they, not having much of them available, have evolved to need for very little of them, conserving them closely,
whereas as they have generally been available to man, we are not so sparing in what amounts are best for us.[/quote]
no, that’s not what i meant - i just meant that meat is better option than plants. but now that i’m not really tired and i’m not thinking about genetic redundacy, the pathways explanation was completely irrelevant. digestion is digestion, whether meat or plant.
However if one is already eating as much bulk as one wants to, and already consuming as much calories as is working out as appropriate, and due to the lousy protein content and even worse amino acid profile of the foods chosen intake of some or all amino acids is not as good as it should be, then the answer is a different and better food.
Not that I’m saying that for example rice-and-green-vegetables-and-fruits only is the optimal vegetarian diet, but let’s use it as an example.
If, as is the case, it is unsatisfactory in protein delivered, the best answer in terms of protein is not yet more rice.
[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
Al Beckles, one of the longest competing pros, may have been a vegetarian (I’ve read conflicting reports, but most say he was.) Andreas Cahling was a successful vegetarian pro in the 80s.
Roy Hilligenn (the vegan with the “average” 375 clean and jerk) was a successful bodybuilder in the 50s. Joe DeMarco, a vegan at 150 pounds, has a body that I’m certain many members here would consider jacked.
I have an old bodybuilding book somewhere that talks about Beckles diet. For 2-3 days he’d eat 4,000 cals of nothing but veggies,fruit and starches, for another 2-3 days he’d get 4,000 cals of nothing but meat [they said horse was his favorite], on Saturday he’d eat as much as he could of whatever he wanted[pizza,burgers,donuts,ice cream,whatever]trying to take in as many cals as possible, and on Sunday he fasted.
Don’t know if this is true, and I have no idea where that book is, but that really stuck out to me. They also said he used pretty much exclusively stupid high reps, like 30+ for everything.