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Veggies>Meat. The China Study

I acknowledge how meat is more specific for muscles since it contains similar amino acids to us, which provides the raw material for protein synthesis. But in I would like to say in the book THE CHINA STUDY by Campbell it says:

“We now know that through enormously complex metabolic systems, the human body can derive all the essential amino acids from the natural variety of plant proteins that we encounter every day. It doesn’t require eating higher quantities of plant protein of meticulously planning every meal.”

Thoughts?

Furthermore, the book also provides some quite convincing statistics on how a high protein diet causes all kinds of diseases and whatnot. Is weightlifting and a highprotein diet really the holy grail to longevity? Just my two cents.

P.S. its a great intriguing book to read

Although it is drastically healthier than the alternative (being sedentary), few people bodybuild specifically for “longevity”.

Some bodybuilders value the possible health and ethical benefits of avoiding meat products in countries where the meat we eat comes almost exclusively from factory farms, but to be perfectly honest those bodybuilders rarely look like anything special. Usually they just look like really tan, oiled up, flexing sick people.

In my experience people that jump on the China Study bandwagon are the same types of people that detest smoking and drive hybrid SUV’s. They are under the pretentious delusion that they are immortal, and somehow all those other people are doomed.

But we all die, so you can either live your life to the fullest, challenging yourself to improve daily and die at 85 with cancer or some metabolic disease, or you can live a little longer by practicing intermittent fasting, never eating meat, never smoking anything or drinking alchohol (or milk! gasp! devils water!!!), obsessing about your health and basically being a waste of sperm and die at 100. Or get hit by a car when you’re 30 and die instantly OOPS LIFES A BITCH HUH

I say live it up and forget this china study crapola. Leave this type of worrying to the people who have yet to realize that life is a zero-sum game, whether you play to win, or not.

I guess for bodybuilding purposes, a high protein is more suitable, despite its’ possible implications. A bit off topic here, but I somehow feel its immoral to kill so many animals for such vain and superficial reasons. I am by no chance saying I am an animal protectionist or anything, but why stress the environmental system even more?

I might try a short one week or month vegetarian experiment and supplementing myself with hemp protein if I get the chance.

[quote]Mondy wrote:
I guess for bodybuilding purposes, a high protein is more suitable, despite its’ possible implications. A bit off topic here, but I somehow feel its immoral to kill so many animals for such vain and superficial reasons. I am by no chance saying I am an animal protectionist or anything, but why stress the environmental system even more? I might try a short one week or month vegetarian experiment and supplementing myself with hemp protein if I get the chance.[/quote]

Just out of curiosity, because you’ve been here since '06… Do you really expect people to care or agree with what you’re saying? In a bodybuilding forum?

I strongly dispute the premise that avoiding meat products is healthy. While it is possible that we can, as the book maintains, derive all the amino acids we need from plants, this does not mean that it is advisable to do so. Human beings are omnivores, and are designed to eat both plant matter and animal flesh. End of story. Any deviation from this is personal choice (NOT personal virtue), and should not be construed as a health option.

This topic is kinda-parallel to the Vegan Bodybuilding thread:

I brought up several points and examples there that, truthfully, I don’t have the energy to retype here. Main point is that whether a person chooses to be vegetarian, vegan, or omnivore, their ability to build muscle and lose fat will not be significantly hindered.

However, “health” and longevity (depending on your definition of them), are unfortunately often separate goals from bodybuilding.

[quote]Mondy wrote:
…in the book THE CHINA STUDY by Campbell it says:

“We now know that through enormously complex metabolic systems, the human body can derive all the essential amino acids from the natural variety of plant proteins that we encounter every day. It doesn’t require eating higher quantities of plant protein of meticulously planning every meal.”

Thoughts?[/quote]
I’m not familiar with this book, but it sounds as though it’s addressing the general population, not exercising folks. People who exercise, especially weight training will require a higher protein intake than sedentary people, so the book’s message doesn’t seem appropriate for this demographic.

After hearing other “convincing statistics” that say orange juice causes cancer and watching television causes pregnancy ( http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE4A20HL20081103 ), I’m gonna pull an Al Borland and say “I don’t think so, Tim.”

I’d love to see Jonny Bowden’s take on this, if he hasn’t addressed it already. He’s in his 60s, exercises regularly, and is big on developing “youngevity.” You might want to mention it in his most recent Question of Nutrition article.

[quote]mr popular wrote:
but to be perfectly honest those bodybuilders rarely look like anything special. Usually they just look like really tan, oiled up, flexing sick people.[/quote]
I totally disagree with this, but it’s really the topic of the Vegan Bodybuilding thread linked above.

I doubt avoiding all meat products would prove to be any healthier than eating them within the “normal” quantities. Someone packing 2-3 lbs of beef down every day on top of other meats is probably overdoing it, and despite maybe not seeing immediate health troubles, would in the long run. If nothing else, that’s a lot of stress on the digestive system.

On the other hand, imagine just how much food you would need to eat to derive 200+g of protein from plants/fruit/nuts, not to mention simply hitting a caloric need of at least 2600 for an active (not BB active, but “fit”) adult male to maintain weight.

I do, however, think that it should be advisable to take a day every 2 weeks or monthly to avoid all meats/cheese/eggs. I’m actually going to try it out this coming week (I’m forced to miss a workout anyway, so I’ll have a 3 day break)

This is an interesting read on the issue…

Link to a previous discussion of The China Study.

Berardi also stopped by and gave a link to the discussion over at the Precision Nutrition forums.

Cornell University has an incredible bias towards vegetarianism in their nutrition program.

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
Main point is that whether a person chooses to be vegetarian, vegan, or omnivore, their ability to build muscle and lose fat will not be significantly hindered.[/quote]

And your objective basis for stating that following a vegan diet will not significantly hinder ability to gain muscle and lose fat is???

oh god not this stupidity again

  1. “can obtain what it requires from plant based protein sources”, the term “require” here has a HUUUUUUUUUUUUGE range, can it obtain everything that a 200 lb guy needs compared to a 130 lb guy ?

  2. HIGH ANIMAL PRODUCT INTAKE DOES NOT MEAN LOW FIBER

  3. LOW CARB INTAKE DOES NOT MEAN LOW FIBER

  4. HIGH FAT INTAKE DOES NOT MEAN LOW FIBER

i just want to scream out points #2-4 for all the fucking world to hear and their damn anti-fat anti-protein propaganda, my diet is under 20% carbs with over 50% fat yet i pound back over 40 grams of fiber daily from whole food sources only

if you eat high fat and high protein with low fiber then yes you are asking for trouble and your colon is going to end up making you pay for it

and one last statement, anything having to do with soy needs to fuck off and die in a fire, so many people are allergic or sensitive to soy protein in western society without even realizing it BECAUSE YOUR ANCESTORS NEVER TOUCHED IT FOR THOUSANDS OF FUCKING YEARS

[quote]IronAbrams wrote:
Cornell University has an incredible bias towards vegetarianism in their nutrition program.[/quote]

i’m sure their model of human perfection is a skinny-fat bastard at 130 lbs and 20% body fat who would get blown away by a strong wind

And not likely get blown by anything else.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
And not likely get blown by anything else.[/quote]

LMFAO

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Chris Colucci wrote:
Main point is that whether a person chooses to be vegetarian, vegan, or omnivore, their ability to build muscle and lose fat will not be significantly hindered.

And your objective basis for stating that following a vegan diet will not significantly hinder ability to gain muscle and lose fat is???

[/quote]
In that Vegan Bodybuilding thread, I pointed to several examples of people who showed that it’s possible to stick to a vegan lifestyle and still see results. Coach Dos Remedios, Mike Mahler, UFC pro Mac Danzig, and bodybuilder Joe DeMarco, among others.

As long as all the nutrition bases are covered with adequate protein, carbs, fats, and calories (which is something every lifter should be doing regardless of their specific plan), I can’t wrap my head around why someone wouldn’t continue to see results on any particular plan.

This is something I’ll continue to look into, and personally experiment with, if only for curiosity.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
And not likely get blown by anything else.[/quote]

LOLOL wow that was hilarious. And on topic, I think vegetarians and vegans are idiots. Have fun being weak, dealing with iron deficiency anemia, and looking like a fag ordering a Caesar salad for your dinner at a steak house.

OP, get your head back on straight please.

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
Chris Colucci wrote:
Main point is that whether a person chooses to be vegetarian, vegan, or omnivore, their ability to build muscle and lose fat will not be significantly hindered.

And your objective basis for stating that following a vegan diet will not significantly hinder ability to gain muscle and lose fat is???

In that Vegan Bodybuilding thread, I pointed to several examples of people who showed that it’s possible to stick to a vegan lifestyle and still see results. Coach Dos Remedios, Mike Mahler, UFC pro Mac Danzig, and bodybuilder Joe DeMarco, among others.

As long as all the nutrition bases are covered with adequate protein, carbs, fats, and calories (which is something every lifter should be doing regardless of their specific plan), I can’t wrap my head around why someone wouldn’t continue to see results on any particular plan.

This is something I’ll continue to look into, and personally experiment with, if only for curiosity.[/quote]

Then why don’t more people do it? Because its a waste of time. I think from now on I’m going to cut out my carb/protein post workout shake because I think it is immoral and unethical to have that. Sure I’ll still make gains but I’d giving up a lot of ground to someone who doesn’t do that. I just don’t see the point in eating like 15 year old girl worried about getting fat.

I think people write books to make money, but you can’t write a book about something that has already been said many times before. So if you want to write a book and make money you have to say something different.

The same goes for the many interesting “studies” being done today. If you want to publish your “research paper” you have to find some new and different “research” to publish.

This is why you can ignore 99% of the bullshit books and studies out there. You already know the truth, eat meat, lift heavy weights, ignore everything else.

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
Have fun being weak[/quote]
Not true. Mahler military presses 88-pound kettlebells for reps and snatches the 97-pounder for reps. Roy Hilligenn clean and jerked 375 at a bodyweight of 173. Both vegans, both strong.

Not true. In the amounts that vegans eat beans, legumes, and green vegetables, it’s mostly a non-issue. In any event, there are vegan-targeted multi-vitamin formulas, if necessary.

If you give a flying rat’s ass what people think of you because of what you order at a restaurant, you’ve got bigger issues than food choice, friend. Seriously now, let’s at least try to use productive examples to state your case.

Veganbodybuilding.com has over 7,000 members. Veganfitness.net has over 5,000. If you consider the entire population of people in the world, the number that lift weights with any amount of dedication is already not a very large group compared to the whole.

Vegan weightlifters are an even smaller minority within that already small minority. Yes, there’s are tons of examples showing that omnivorous diets work great for building muscle and strength. But there a also enough examples of vegan diets producing results that it can’t be considered a fluke.

That would be a dopey thing to do, and it’s not what we’re (or at least I’m) talking about, and you know that. You’re aware of the benefits of PWO nutrition, but if you choose to avoid PWO nutrition without inserting an effective substitute, then of course you shouldn’t expect results.

I have a feeling you just described a good amount of people who post in the Rate My Physique forum. What that has to do with exclusively vegetarian/vegan choices, I’m not sure.