Vegetarian Bodybuilding

You’re 19 and you say you put on 15 lbs in the past year. How much taller did you get over the last year?

As for vegetarian diets, I’m the wrong person to give you advice, but you may get something out of this:

JB goes Vegetarian:

Some of his learnings:

Results:
precisionnutrition.com/sexy-vegetarian

[quote]tribunaldude wrote:
Lets see, going by my south-east-asian check list:

  1. Clearly, english ain’t his first language,
  2. he’s admittedly skinny-fat
  3. he’s vegetarian and proud
  4. Plenty of e-aggression
    Not yet 100% certain, and only a picture of his dense bones and dense frame will confirm my suspicion though.

Bonezo, you need to ask this guy his ethnicity before you continue wasting your time. [/quote]

Haha, asian? sorry to burst ur bubble but im 100% american bro, white boy. Never said I was proud to be a vegetarian, just saying that I am…and Im not skinny fat, whatever that is, but I have had many a people compliment on my frame in the past year, not bragging, just sayin the truth…the real point is you guys need to quit focusing on what you find wrong with my posts and if you wanna comment great, just tell me a simple thing. Is 15lbs of muscle about right? if not, maybe i should eat more/train different, cut out my cardio or somethin…but I love all the arguments, almost as funny as the dog jumping out of the car avatar

pics of your amazing frame, Mr. 100% american…white boy (lolz)

[quote]Russaldo13 wrote:

[quote]tribunaldude wrote:
Lets see, going by my south-east-asian check list:

  1. Clearly, english ain’t his first language,
  2. he’s admittedly skinny-fat
  3. he’s vegetarian and proud
  4. Plenty of e-aggression
    Not yet 100% certain, and only a picture of his dense bones and dense frame will confirm my suspicion though.

Bonezo, you need to ask this guy his ethnicity before you continue wasting your time. [/quote]

Haha, asian? sorry to burst ur bubble but im 100% american bro, white boy. Never said I was proud to be a vegetarian, just saying that I am…and Im not skinny fat, whatever that is, but I have had many a people compliment on my frame in the past year, not bragging, just sayin the truth…the real point is you guys need to quit focusing on what you find wrong with my posts and if you wanna comment great, just tell me a simple thing. Is 15lbs of muscle about right? if not, maybe i should eat more/train different, cut out my cardio or somethin…but I love all the arguments, almost as funny as the dog jumping out of the car avatar[/quote]

[quote]Russaldo13 wrote:
the real point is you guys need to quit focusing on what you find wrong with my posts[/quote]

Kiddo, the real point is that you’re a beginner, both in terms of your training experience and your time here on this forum.

When you say crap like…

it shows you as some punk who doesn’t respect people with vastly more knowledge who are usually willing to help. Bonez is a solid guy who gives solid advice.

You really should swallow your pride and apologize for being a dickhead. (On a related note, he’s right about the soy. You’re parotting information that’s been misinterpreted and blown out of proportion. But that’s beside the point.)

Regardless, I’m going to channel my inner Miyagi and give you my two cents, even though part of me expects you to be unappreciative.

No, 15 pounds of bodyweight in a year isn’t a whole lot, especially for a skinnier dude brand new to lifting. At 6’1" and 190ish, you’re still on the skinny side. It isn’t that taller guys have a harder time gaining weight. It’s that they usually need to gain more weight than a shorter guy,since their size is spread out over a larger surface (that tall, lanky body of yours.)

In terms of bodybuilding, when you’re 6’ and above, you probably won’t start looking big until 220 or so, even more if your goal is to be uber-jacked. “Dense bones” mean absolutely zippo in the world of bodybuilding.

What exactly did you eat yesterday?

I didn’t see if you’re allowing yourself to eat dairy and eggs. Things will be much easier all around if you are. You can still do a “clean bulk” if you’re concerned about adding bodyfat, but you’ve got to plan it right.

I personally did a two month vegetarian/vegan diet last year:

One of the biggest things I learned is that it’s easy to underestimate how many calories you’re actually getting, and more importantly, you tend to underestimate how much protein you’re getting.

Depending on how much fat you currently have (You mentioned your bodyfat percentage. How’d you get that number?), you could do something as simple as carb cycling - having less carbs on days you don’t lift, while keeping your calories high everyday.

Before we can suggest something different, we need to know what you’re doing now, right?

How much can you currently squat, deadlift, overhead press, bench, and row?

Exactly what does your training week look like? What days are you lifting? What exercises each day, what sets and reps? How much cardio are you doing… and since you’re trying to gain size, why?

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:

[quote]Russaldo13 wrote:
the real point is you guys need to quit focusing on what you find wrong with my posts[/quote]

Kiddo, the real point is that you’re a beginner, both in terms of your training experience and your time here on this forum.

When you say crap like…

it shows you as some punk who doesn’t respect people with vastly more knowledge who are usually willing to help. Bonez is a solid guy who gives solid advice.

You really should swallow your pride and apologize for being a dickhead. (On a related note, he’s right about the soy. You’re parotting information that’s been misinterpreted and blown out of proportion. But that’s beside the point.)

Regardless, I’m going to channel my inner Miyagi and give you my two cents, even though part of me expects you to be unappreciative.

No, 15 pounds of bodyweight in a year isn’t a whole lot, especially for a skinnier dude brand new to lifting. At 6’1" and 190ish, you’re still on the skinny side. It isn’t that taller guys have a harder time gaining weight. It’s that they usually need to gain more weight than a shorter guy,since their size is spread out over a larger surface (that tall, lanky body of yours.)

In terms of bodybuilding, when you’re 6’ and above, you probably won’t start looking big until 220 or so, even more if your goal is to be uber-jacked. “Dense bones” mean absolutely zippo in the world of bodybuilding.

What exactly did you eat yesterday?

I didn’t see if you’re allowing yourself to eat dairy and eggs. Things will be much easier all around if you are. You can still do a “clean bulk” if you’re concerned about adding bodyfat, but you’ve got to plan it right.

I personally did a two month vegetarian/vegan diet last year:

One of the biggest things I learned is that it’s easy to underestimate how many calories you’re actually getting, and more importantly, you tend to underestimate how much protein you’re getting.

Depending on how much fat you currently have (You mentioned your bodyfat percentage. How’d you get that number?), you could do something as simple as carb cycling - having less carbs on days you don’t lift, while keeping your calories high everyday.

Before we can suggest something different, we need to know what you’re doing now, right?

How much can you currently squat, deadlift, overhead press, bench, and row?

Exactly what does your training week look like? What days are you lifting? What exercises each day, what sets and reps? How much cardio are you doing… and since you’re trying to gain size, why?[/quote]

K bro I get what your saying…

Heres the low down…

I eat 200g of protein daily usually about 80 from whey powder and the rest from food, mostly eggs and beans.

I consume anywhere from 2,000-4,000 calories a day and fluxuate my carbs in sets of 100, 200, and 300 depending on the day.

I dont know my lifting stats, Ive never maxed out, nor do I use barbells that much, I was told using dumbbells and having better form will lower the weight you lift, but increase the muscle faster, Im starting to think thats wrong though, Ive seen countless bodybuilders using terrible form but their jacked. Maybe thats just the “old school” bodybuilding technique, but it works for them.

[quote]Russaldo13 wrote:
I eat 200g of protein daily usually about 80 from whey powder and the rest from food, mostly eggs and beans.[/quote]

Here’s one thing I was talking about regarding vegetarian protein intake. Beans aren’t always complete proteins. Just because the label says you’re getting 30 grams of protein in a can of kidney beans doesn’t mean you’re actually getting 30 grams of protein.

Ugh.

This is why I specifically asked exactly what you ate yesterday.

What was for breakfast, what was for lunch, dinner, snacks? Specifics. The fact that your calorie intake has such a ridiculous range could be the single reason you’re not gaining more muscular bodyweight.

Ugh again.

Even if you’ve never maxed out, I asked “How much can you currently squat, deadlift, overhead press, bench, and row?”

What weight and reps do you use for those exercises, even with dumbbells?

Figuring out your current strength levels, in combination with your current size, will help to figure out the best next step.

Also, you skipped over my questions about the rest of your current training. “Exactly what does your training week look like? What days are you lifting? What exercises each day, what sets and reps? How much cardio are you doing… and since you’re trying to gain size, why?”

If you don’t want to put in the effort to answer, fine by me. But you’re the one who asked for help.

And yeah, whoever told you that dumbbell/barbell nonsense is mentally deficient. An effective, well-balanced program will absolutely revolve around basic barbell exercises, in addition to dumbbells, cables, machines, etc.

Would you consider Pea Protein Isolate a complete protein? I am trying to eliminate my use of Whey Protein, as it has caused problems with my skin, but wanted to know what the best vegetarian substitute would be.

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:

[quote]Russaldo13 wrote:
I eat 200g of protein daily usually about 80 from whey powder and the rest from food, mostly eggs and beans.[/quote]

Here’s one thing I was talking about regarding vegetarian protein intake. Beans aren’t always complete proteins. Just because the label says you’re getting 30 grams of protein in a can of kidney beans doesn’t mean you’re actually getting 30 grams of protein.

Ugh.

This is why I specifically asked exactly what you ate yesterday.

What was for breakfast, what was for lunch, dinner, snacks? Specifics. The fact that your calorie intake has such a ridiculous range could be the single reason you’re not gaining more muscular bodyweight.

Ugh again.

Even if you’ve never maxed out, I asked “How much can you currently squat, deadlift, overhead press, bench, and row?”

What weight and reps do you use for those exercises, even with dumbbells?

Figuring out your current strength levels, in combination with your current size, will help to figure out the best next step.

Also, you skipped over my questions about the rest of your current training. “Exactly what does your training week look like? What days are you lifting? What exercises each day, what sets and reps? How much cardio are you doing… and since you’re trying to gain size, why?”

If you don’t want to put in the effort to answer, fine by me. But you’re the one who asked for help.

And yeah, whoever told you that dumbbell/barbell nonsense is mentally deficient. An effective, well-balanced program will absolutely revolve around basic barbell exercises, in addition to dumbbells, cables, machines, etc.[/quote]

Ok here goes…

7:00am-20 mins of HIIT cardio (followed by 20g of whey powder and greens powder)

7:30am-2 pieces of oat nut toast w/ organic peanut butter (about 40 carbs, 300 cals, and 25g of protein)

12:00pm WORKOUT (Biceps/Chest) (60sec rest between sets)
5x16 DB curls, 8 normal then 8 hammer at with 25lb dbs
5x10 machine cable curls, 60lbs
5x8 Barbell curls, 80lbs
4 sets of 21’s, 2 sets normal curls, 2 sets hammer curls, with 22.5 dbs
20G OF WHEY POWDER
5x10 Machine chest press, 180lbs
5x8 DB Chest fly, 45lb dbs
5x8 DB chest press, 60lb dbs
5x8 Incline DB chest fly, 55lb dbs
5x8 Incline DB chest fly, 40lb dbs
60g of whey protein

2:00pm-2 eggs+6 egg whites and hash browns (about 20 carbs, 300 cals, and 30g of protein)

4:00pm-half cup of almonds (about 300 cals, 10 g of protein, and 6 carbs)

7:00pm-Burrito (black beans, rice, salsa and guac - about 80 carbs, 700 cals, and 55g of protein)

9:00pm-10mins of abs followed by protein bar (400 cals, 30g of protein, 6 carbs) low carb bar

so thats it bro, any advice would be much apreciated

I dropped by simply to lol at Russaldo13 telling BONEZ217 he knows nothing. I love the 09 Posters <3. I also love meat and therefore have little to contribute to this thread, sorry.

Also with regards to Russaldo13 thinking tall people struggle to gain weight:

Perhaps you simply need a greater overall food intake. Did you gain much in the way of fat?

EDIT: Also please go easy on calling people “bro” on this forum.

[quote]benmoore wrote:
I dropped by simply to lol at Russaldo13 telling BONEZ217 he knows nothing. I love the 09 Posters <3. I also love meat and therefore have little to contribute to this thread, sorry.

Also with regards to Russaldo13 thinking tall people struggle to gain weight:

Perhaps you simply need a greater overall food intake. Did you gain much in the way of fat?

EDIT: Also please go easy on calling people “bro” on this forum.[/quote]

Well yeah I have figured out that BONEZ knows more than me, but when someone comes at me like a dick, Imma assume they dont know shit, cuz if they did, they wouldnt be a dick…but hey maybe im sensitive.

As far as fat goes Ive only lost it since I started, havent gained any fat at all.

And as far as bro goes…NorCal born and raised, so its just gonna happen

[quote]Russaldo13 wrote:

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:

[quote]Russaldo13 wrote:
I eat 200g of protein daily usually about 80 from whey powder and the rest from food, mostly eggs and beans.[/quote]

Here’s one thing I was talking about regarding vegetarian protein intake. Beans aren’t always complete proteins. Just because the label says you’re getting 30 grams of protein in a can of kidney beans doesn’t mean you’re actually getting 30 grams of protein.

Ugh.

This is why I specifically asked exactly what you ate yesterday.

What was for breakfast, what was for lunch, dinner, snacks? Specifics. The fact that your calorie intake has such a ridiculous range could be the single reason you’re not gaining more muscular bodyweight.

Ugh again.

Even if you’ve never maxed out, I asked “How much can you currently squat, deadlift, overhead press, bench, and row?”

What weight and reps do you use for those exercises, even with dumbbells?

Figuring out your current strength levels, in combination with your current size, will help to figure out the best next step.

Also, you skipped over my questions about the rest of your current training. “Exactly what does your training week look like? What days are you lifting? What exercises each day, what sets and reps? How much cardio are you doing… and since you’re trying to gain size, why?”

If you don’t want to put in the effort to answer, fine by me. But you’re the one who asked for help.

And yeah, whoever told you that dumbbell/barbell nonsense is mentally deficient. An effective, well-balanced program will absolutely revolve around basic barbell exercises, in addition to dumbbells, cables, machines, etc.[/quote]

Ok here goes…

7:00am-20 mins of HIIT cardio (followed by 20g of whey powder and greens powder)

7:30am-2 pieces of oat nut toast w/ organic peanut butter (about 40 carbs, 300 cals, and 25g of protein)

12:00pm WORKOUT (Biceps/Chest) (60sec rest between sets)
5x16 DB curls, 8 normal then 8 hammer at with 25lb dbs
5x10 machine cable curls, 60lbs
5x8 Barbell curls, 80lbs
4 sets of 21’s, 2 sets normal curls, 2 sets hammer curls, with 22.5 dbs
20G OF WHEY POWDER
5x10 Machine chest press, 180lbs
5x8 DB Chest fly, 45lb dbs
5x8 DB chest press, 60lb dbs
5x8 Incline DB chest fly, 55lb dbs
5x8 Incline DB chest fly, 40lb dbs
60g of whey protein

2:00pm-2 eggs+6 egg whites and hash browns (about 20 carbs, 300 cals, and 30g of protein)

4:00pm-half cup of almonds (about 300 cals, 10 g of protein, and 6 carbs)

7:00pm-Burrito (black beans, rice, salsa and guac - about 80 carbs, 700 cals, and 55g of protein)

9:00pm-10mins of abs followed by protein bar (400 cals, 30g of protein, 6 carbs) low carb bar

so thats it bro, any advice would be much apreciated

[/quote]
Alright you shouldn’t get rid of the yolks from the 6 eggs you used to get the egg whites from they contain protein as well I would only count protein you are getting from animal sources so you end up getting a little more how do you do with dairy such as milk? If this was chest and bi day you should do chest first then biceps and incline flies and flies before dumbbell press than machine press afterward if you have trouble feeling your chest, If you are as lean as you say you are you should minimize the cardio. What split do you follow?

[quote]
Alright you shouldn’t get rid of the yolks from the 6 eggs you used to get the egg whites from they contain protein as well I would only count protein you are getting from animal sources so you end up getting a little more how do you do with dairy such as milk? If this was chest and bi day you should do chest first then biceps and incline flies and flies before dumbbell press than machine press afterward if you have trouble feeling your chest, If you are as lean as you say you are you should minimize the cardio. What split do you follow?[/quote]

Im great with milk, I usually go nonfat but I heard 2% is actually better for you. And as far as cheese goes I dont really eat any at all, but I was told most white cheeses like mozzarella and provolone are actually good for you and wont put fat on.

Thanks for the workout advice, Ill do my plan the way you set it up next time, give that a shit for sure.

Also, sometimes I do have problems feeling my chest exercises in my chest, I feel like my tri/rear delt area gets more of the burn, not sure why though, I really focus on my form.

I am making this post on the assumption you are trying to gain muscle mass. If you want to be a vegetarian I am fine with that it comes with more challenges but it is still possible. If you allow eggs and milk I would start with

Breakfast 6-12 YOLKS, if you include some whites that is fine lightly fried with coconut oil or butter and three or four slices of whole wheat bread with butter and whole milk for breakfast. That should get you about 40-50 grams of good, mainly animal source protein in the morning.

Lunch, lunch and dinner one quart of whole or 2% milk at each sitting along with a vegetarian meal, yes two lunches, or two dinners. There is no reason to eat twice during a workout!

A basic real lifting program not one with 16 rep curl sets. Instead one with 10x10 pullups followed by 10x10 pushups or BP with more weight when pushups are too easy then 10x10 full squats done three time per week until you are ready to move up to something more advanced. If you merely eat the four meals per day you would probably gain 15 lbs lean in a year.

I told you to read stuff from Bill Pearl, you should also read Starting Strength from Ripetoe.

I will reiterate what I posted earlier 15 lbs in a year is NOT good for a newer lifter, but is great for an established lifter who is already really strong and or muscular.

fuck im too late to say to the OP that you dont want to fuck with BONEZ! point blank period!

anyways “bro” you really need to hit the kitchen harder than the weight room, and if your trying to gain weight cut the cardio, err i mean HIIT, you want to gain weight, fuck the HIIT

also the diet that you provided, (which seems like you rounded up on for cals for every meal that you ate) it only totals EXACTLY 2000 CALORIES!!! if your 6’1" and about 200lb you need to fucking eat, and fucking doing all those curls and flys, if your able to do 5 sets of machine presses and 5 sets of bench presses then your not fucking working hard enough seems like your working more for fat loss or something shit like that, all you need is more compound movements

and listen to BONEZ keep growing “bro”

[quote]vcraig111 wrote:
I am making this post on the assumption you are trying to gain muscle mass. If you want to be a vegetarian I am fine with that it comes with more challenges but it is still possible. If you allow eggs and milk I would start with

Breakfast 6-12 YOLKS, if you include some whites that is fine lightly fried with coconut oil or butter and three or four slices of whole wheat bread with butter and whole milk for breakfast. That should get you about 40-50 grams of good, mainly animal source protein in the morning.

Lunch, lunch and dinner one quart of whole or 2% milk at each sitting along with a vegetarian meal, yes two lunches, or two dinners. There is no reason to eat twice during a workout!

A basic real lifting program not one with 16 rep curl sets. Instead one with 10x10 pullups followed by 10x10 pushups or BP with more weight when pushups are too easy then 10x10 full squats done three time per week until you are ready to move up to something more advanced. If you merely eat the four meals per day you would probably gain 15 lbs lean in a year.

I told you to read stuff from Bill Pearl, you should also read Starting Strength from Ripetoe.

I will reiterate what I posted earlier 15 lbs in a year is NOT good for a newer lifter, but is great for an established lifter who is already really strong and or muscular. [/quote]

Awesome bro, I will deffinitaly try out the new eating habbits, and I wont have to waste money on egg whites, plain eggs are sooooo much cheeper, being a college student idk If i can afford half a gallon of milk a day but I probably can pull some strings. So basically Im just gonna jack my dairy intake, I also eat greek yogurt, Im fairly sure that stuff is great for bodybuilders.

I will for sure read up on your recommendations, and I agree I need a real routine, would I be able to find one in those readings?

[quote]young n wrote:
fuck im too late to say to the OP that you dont want to fuck with BONEZ! point blank period!

anyways “bro” you really need to hit the kitchen harder than the weight room, and if your trying to gain weight cut the cardio, err i mean HIIT, you want to gain weight, fuck the HIIT

also the diet that you provided, (which seems like you rounded up on for cals for every meal that you ate) it only totals EXACTLY 2000 CALORIES!!! if your 6’1" and about 200lb you need to fucking eat, and fucking doing all those curls and flys, if your able to do 5 sets of machine presses and 5 sets of bench presses then your not fucking working hard enough seems like your working more for fat loss or something shit like that, all you need is more compound movements

and listen to BONEZ keep growing “bro”[/quote]

Haha, no cardio?? I mean Im tryin to bulk up and all but I still wanna be athletic.

By fuckin eat you mean??? Like Im totaly all for chowing down, I just aint sure what is proper “building food”

And I didnt start shit with BONEZ, he basically called me a retard so I took offense. First post ever, you woulda done the same

TO THE OP: VCRAIG said it, fucking EAT! thats all have to do, throw more fucking shakes in your diet, simple:

1 scoop protein powder
1 banana or a few strawberries
1 ???
throw some oats in there also

just add hella shit in there and drink that in ADDITION to you current diet, cause from what i see, you only getting protein at like 1 or 2 meals in the day

o yea heres a start fucking drink whole milk and squat, aka squats and milk . . . . . its pretty easy to see that you have no clue what the fuck your doing workout wise

[quote]young n wrote:
TO THE OP: VCRAIG said it, fucking EAT! thats all have to do, throw more fucking shakes in your diet, simple:

1 scoop protein powder
1 banana or a few strawberries
1 ???
throw some oats in there also

just add hella shit in there and drink that in ADDITION to you current diet, cause from what i see, you only getting protein at like 1 or 2 meals in the day

o yea heres a start fucking drink whole milk and squat, aka squats and milk . . . . . its pretty easy to see that you have no clue what the fuck your doing workout wise[/quote]

Ah see now that is where your wrong… My cardio and functional strength is probably much greater than a body builder whos been at it for the same amount of time as me…but now Im trying to bulk up which admittedly Im not an expert on. I am on the path to becoming a certified personal trainer with a major in kin and exercise biology, so lets calm down before we say idk what im doing. Just the diet Im not all that sure about…

[quote]Russaldo13 wrote:

[quote]young n wrote:
fuck im too late to say to the OP that you dont want to fuck with BONEZ! point blank period!

anyways “bro” you really need to hit the kitchen harder than the weight room, and if your trying to gain weight cut the cardio, err i mean HIIT, you want to gain weight, fuck the HIIT

also the diet that you provided, (which seems like you rounded up on for cals for every meal that you ate) it only totals EXACTLY 2000 CALORIES!!! if your 6’1" and about 200lb you need to fucking eat, and fucking doing all those curls and flys, if your able to do 5 sets of machine presses and 5 sets of bench presses then your not fucking working hard enough seems like your working more for fat loss or something shit like that, all you need is more compound movements

and listen to BONEZ keep growing “bro”[/quote]

Haha, no cardio?? I mean Im tryin to bulk up and all but I still wanna be athletic.

By fuckin eat you mean??? Like Im totaly all for chowing down, I just aint sure what is proper “building food”

And I didnt start shit with BONEZ, he basically called me a retard so I took offense. First post ever, you woulda done the same
[/quote]

There’s a reason I didn’t respond to your back handed attempt at an apologetic PM. I’d prefer it if you didn’t mention my username in your posts. I don’t actually care what anyone else does either so dont go there please.

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]Russaldo13 wrote:

[quote]young n wrote:
fuck im too late to say to the OP that you dont want to fuck with BONEZ! point blank period!

anyways “bro” you really need to hit the kitchen harder than the weight room, and if your trying to gain weight cut the cardio, err i mean HIIT, you want to gain weight, fuck the HIIT

also the diet that you provided, (which seems like you rounded up on for cals for every meal that you ate) it only totals EXACTLY 2000 CALORIES!!! if your 6’1" and about 200lb you need to fucking eat, and fucking doing all those curls and flys, if your able to do 5 sets of machine presses and 5 sets of bench presses then your not fucking working hard enough seems like your working more for fat loss or something shit like that, all you need is more compound movements

and listen to BONEZ keep growing “bro”[/quote]

Haha, no cardio?? I mean Im tryin to bulk up and all but I still wanna be athletic.

By fuckin eat you mean??? Like Im totaly all for chowing down, I just aint sure what is proper “building food”

And I didnt start shit with BONEZ, he basically called me a retard so I took offense. First post ever, you woulda done the same
[/quote]

There’s a reason I didn’t respond to your back handed attempt at an apologetic PM. I’d prefer it if you didn’t mention my username in your posts. I don’t actually care what anyone else does either so dont go there please.
[/quote]

Fair enough bro, and it wasnt an apology, I didnt wrong you, we had an argument, I tried to end it. But consider your name withdrawn from my mouth…however you have quite the fan club, people keep rollin in to tell what a dumbass I am, so maybe call off the dogs and I wont have to defend myself