T Nation

Veganism Contributes to Industrial Farming

So here’s something I was thinking of today:

let?s say you?re a vegan, you say you don?t want to hurt animals, and you want them to be treated with respect. But what you?re actually doing is contributing to industrial farming, and here?s why.

As a consumer, you have choices about where to buy from. There are local organic free-range farms where the dairy cows aren?t cramped up and mistreated, and the egg-laying chickens are allowed free range as well. Then there are industrial farms where conditions are deadly, toxic, and absolutely horrid for the animals.

The problem is that industrial farms are crushing small local farms and forcing them into bankruptcy one after the other. Now as a vegan, you scream about wanting animals to be treated better. But you have these local farms where they ARE treated better.

These local farms need your help, but as a consumer you?re doing the whole passive-aggressive-I?m-morally-superior-to-you vegan thing, and actually keeping your dollar in your pocket. Unfortunately the type of people that would buy from a local organic free-range type farm are in large part choosing instead to be vegan.

So by sitting on the sidelines so to speak you?re not supporting the very farms that embody the ideals you claim to support, and allowing them to be continually raped by industrial farms.

Vegans don’t want real world solutions. They just want the world to morph into this magical place where people and animals dance on rainbows hand in paw.

They’re goddamn hippies.

Edit: You bring up a good point though. My sister is a vegetarian who has been considering becoming Vegan. If anything would change her mind, I think your argument would be it, so thanks.

Every time I hear something about vegans I think of the simpson?s episode where lisa has a crush on a guy that is a ?level 5 vegan?. He says he doesn?t eat anything that casts a shadow.

[quote]AccipiterQ wrote:
So by sitting on the sidelines so to speak you?re not supporting the very farms that embody the ideals you claim to support, and allowing them to be continually raped by industrial farms.
[/quote]

Not necessarily. They still waste their money on “organic” fruits and vegetables at Whole Foods. I was in line yesterday next to this weird ass hippy chick who was perusing a copy of “Gluten Free Living” or something like that…and she had a hemp sack full of vegetables and nothing else…she also had a level 17 vegan card so she got a discount.

If you ask me “oganic” and “free range” food is the biggest marketing scam ever.

There is no difference in the chemical make up of organic and non-organic foods. There is no difference in the way a cow is slaughtered just because it gets 10 m-sq extra to move around a day. A cow isn't smart enough to know his life sucks. This is just your weak human mind trying to empathize with a dumb beast.

Organic and free range farming cannot feed the world, so I ask you dumb hippies: which of you is willing you commit suicide to provide more space for organic and free range farming? In fact, organic and free range is the equivalent of poverty.

Give me industrial, mass produced, cheap food.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Every time I hear something about vegans I think of the simpson?s episode where lisa has a crush on a guy that is a ?level 5 vegan?. He says he doesn?t eat anything that casts a shadow.[/quote]

Haha, awesome.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
AccipiterQ wrote:
So by sitting on the sidelines so to speak you?re not supporting the very farms that embody the ideals you claim to support, and allowing them to be continually raped by industrial farms.

Not necessarily. They still waste their money on “organic” fruits and vegetables at Whole Foods. I was in line yesterday next to this weird ass hippy chick who was perusing a copy of “Gluten Free Living” or something like that…and she had a hemp sack full of vegetables and nothing else…she also had a level 17 vegan card so she got a discount.

If you ask me “oganic” and “free range” food is the biggest marketing scam ever.

There is no difference in the chemical make up of organic and non-organic foods. There is no difference in the way a cow is slaughtered just because it gets 10 m-sq extra to move around a day. A cow isn't smart enough to know his life sucks. This is just your weak human mind trying to empathize with a dumb beast.

Organic and free range farming cannot feed the world, so I ask you dumb hippies: which of you is willing you commit suicide to provide more space for organic and free range farming? In fact, organic and free range is the equivalent of poverty.

Give me industrial, mass produced, cheap food.
[/quote]

I go to whole food because they carry bison… Mmm…

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
AccipiterQ wrote:
So by sitting on the sidelines so to speak you?re not supporting the very farms that embody the ideals you claim to support, and allowing them to be continually raped by industrial farms.

Not necessarily. They still waste their money on “organic” fruits and vegetables at Whole Foods. I was in line yesterday next to this weird ass hippy chick who was perusing a copy of “Gluten Free Living” or something like that…and she had a hemp sack full of vegetables and nothing else…she also had a level 17 vegan card so she got a discount.

If you ask me “oganic” and “free range” food is the biggest marketing scam ever.

There is no difference in the chemical make up of organic and non-organic foods. There is no difference in the way a cow is slaughtered just because it gets 10 m-sq extra to move around a day. A cow isn't smart enough to know his life sucks. This is just your weak human mind trying to empathize with a dumb beast.

Organic and free range farming cannot feed the world, so I ask you dumb hippies: which of you is willing you commit suicide to provide more space for organic and free range farming? In fact, organic and free range is the equivalent of poverty.

Give me industrial, mass produced, cheap food.
[/quote]

Good post all around. And you didn’t even have to mention the food chain (which is why we’re SUPPOSED to be eating animals).

I get some things at Whole Foods, but definitely cringe at most of the people there. I live in an area full of well-off people, and people who live WAY beyond there means to appear well-off, so it is trendy to shop there. I have to laugh though when I see someone getting a $125 bill for a hand-carried basket full of food.

I love how Jim Gaffigan put it: “I’m not a strict vegetarian, I eat beef and pork.”

Vegetarianism is another way to feel better than others, unless you use it as a way to cope with a medical condition (My sister in-law gets pretty insane stomach cramps from eating meat).

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
In fact, organic and free range is the equivalent of poverty.
[/quote]

What does this even mean?

[quote]eightprops wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
In fact, organic and free range is the equivalent of poverty.

What does this even mean?
[/quote]

It means that poor people would starve if all farmers were to switch to organic and free range farming only. Organic food might get cheaper but regular food would become more expensive. People in developing nations farm organically because all the western technologies are too expensive to them. As a result they do not produce enough food. They live in poverty and they don’t consider what they are doing to be “environmentally friendly” living. They want chemical fertilizers and bio-engineered seeds to put food in their bellies.

In terms of quality of life, producing less food – i.e., organic and free range farming – does not lead to better quality food, per se. It just leads to less food that is more expensive.

[quote]eightprops wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
In fact, organic and free range is the equivalent of poverty.

What does this even mean?
[/quote]

It means that there is a trade off.

Feed many with grain-fattened, industrially mass-produced food or have high quality, grass-fed, free-range foods but an impoverished and limited population.

[quote]MarvelGirl wrote:
Vegans don’t want real world solutions. They just want the world to morph into this magical place where people and animals dance on rainbows hand in paw.

They’re goddamn hippies.

Edit: You bring up a good point though. My sister is a vegetarian who has been considering becoming Vegan. If anything would change her mind, I think your argument would be it, so thanks.[/quote]

yeah fuckin hippies, compassion for life is for suckas.
they’re also scrawny and weak as shit.

I should know, I am one. :stuck_out_tongue:

I don’t give a shit about whether food is organic or not, btw.
so mass-produced cruelty free food is fine with me.

[quote]miroku333 wrote:

yeah fuckin hippies, compassion for life is for suckas.
they’re also scrawny and weak as shit.

I should know, I am one. :stuck_out_tongue:

I don’t give a shit about whether food is organic or not, btw.
so mass-produced cruelty free food is fine with me.

[/quote]

Yes, it is for suckas when you refuse to see reality and just close your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears and scream “I’m not listening!” until animals are allowed to vote.
lol, ;p

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
eightprops wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
In fact, organic and free range is the equivalent of poverty.

What does this even mean?

It means that poor people would starve if all farmers were to switch to organic and free range farming only. Organic food might get cheaper but regular food would become more expensive. People in developing nations farm organically because all the western technologies are too expensive to them. As a result they do not produce enough food. They live in poverty and they don’t consider what they are doing to be “environmentally friendly” living. They want chemical fertilizers and bio-engineered seeds to put food in their bellies.

In terms of quality of life, producing less food – i.e., organic and free range farming – does not lead to better quality food, per se. It just leads to less food that is more expensive.[/quote]

I disagree with your quality argument.

The industrialization process is heavily affixed to grain fed cattle and low quality feed. The subsequent anti-biotics and hormones necessary to accommodate this feeding style is absolutely carried over to us when we consume the animal(specifically the animal’s fat that stores and integrates toxins).

Edit: You could also make an argument that, even if the animal isn’t conscious of it’s restrictive cage, it’s stress levels(subsequently cortisol levels) could be elevated because of the close contact to so many other animals.
It might then hinder the effects of anti-biotics and bovine growth hormone resulting in higher administered dosages.
This is purely hypothetical, though. I was just putting it out there.

[quote]limitatinfinity wrote:
I disagree with your quality argument.

The industrialization process is heavily affixed to grain fed cattle and low quality feed. The subsequent anti-biotics and hormones necessary to accommodate this feeding style is absolutely carried over to us when we consume the animal(specifically the animal’s fat that stores and integrates toxins).[/quote]

Eh, industrialized farming is good enough for my grandparents who are mostly still living and chewing food with their real teeth.

Fuck it.

The key is to smoke a pack a day. It cancels out all the other chemicals.

[quote]miroku333 wrote:
MarvelGirl wrote:
Vegans don’t want real world solutions. They just want the world to morph into this magical place where people and animals dance on rainbows hand in paw.

They’re goddamn hippies.

Edit: You bring up a good point though. My sister is a vegetarian who has been considering becoming Vegan. If anything would change her mind, I think your argument would be it, so thanks.

yeah fuckin hippies, compassion for life is for suckas.
they’re also scrawny and weak as shit.

I should know, I am one. :stuck_out_tongue:

I don’t give a shit about whether food is organic or not, btw.
so mass-produced cruelty free food is fine with me.

[/quote]

All animals die, the only way to prevent death is to prevent life in the first place. Other than that, non horrible conditions and a quick death would be the reasonable things to ask.

For most vegans, it is a feel good fad. I find most of the time vegans are worse than nutritionally uninformed, most spread disinformation. EX: Meat is bad for you, it lowers life expectancy, soy gives you everything you need, ect. I hope that you are not one of those types. If not, then coo-dose for sticking up for your beliefs.

I am an animal with canine teeth. I can’t see getting upset with all forms of human carnivorous activity unless you feel the same way when a lion rips the jugular out of a zebra.

[quote]MarvelGirl wrote:
miroku333 wrote:

yeah fuckin hippies, compassion for life is for suckas.
they’re also scrawny and weak as shit.

I should know, I am one. :stuck_out_tongue:

I don’t give a shit about whether food is organic or not, btw.
so mass-produced cruelty free food is fine with me.

Yes, it is for suckas when you refuse to see reality and just close your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears and scream “I’m not listening!” until animals are allowed to vote.
lol, ;p

[/quote]

well I’m not trying to convert anyone to veganism.
and I can see Q’s point - it is well thought out.

becoming vegan is a personal choice, and it would be hypocritical for me to judge others - considering the fact that in the past I’ve probably eaten 3 times as many animals as your typical american family

and I don’t think any animals should be allowed to vote, including people. Majority rule and “the greater good” have been very effective tools of oppression for centuries. and I’ll stop there because this isn’t PWI.

I thought I would just stand up for vegans, because I’m probably the only one that hangs about T-Nation on a regular basis.

but happy animal eating guys ( I’m serious.) If it makes you happy and healthy, how could I be against it?

:slight_smile:

LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
eightprops wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
In fact, organic and free range is the equivalent of poverty.

What does this even mean?

LIFTICVSMAXIMVS: It means that poor people would starve if all farmers were to switch to organic and free range farming only.

eightprops: So, industrial style farming is the reason poor people aren’t starving today?

LIFTICVSMAXIMVS: Organic food might get cheaper but regular food would become more expensive.

eightprops: Regular means chemically and/or genetically altered?

LIFTICVSMAXIMVS: People in developing nations farm organically because all the western technologies are too expensive to them. As a result they do not produce enough food.

eightprops: In reality, western nations sell their surplus grains/produce to developing nations, undermining the local farmers/producers. This usually leads to the downfall of local agriculture and the rise of further dependence upon industrialized nations. The Jamaican dairy industry is a perfect model of how this works.

LIFTICVSMAXIMVS: They live in poverty and they don’t consider what they are doing to be “environmentally friendly” living. They want chemical fertilizers and bio-engineered seeds to put food in their bellies.

eightprops: In reality, these bio-engineered crops render non-altered crops sterile when they cross polinate. The bio-engineering companies essentially destroy adjacent plots of “organic” land and then claim their patented products are being grown illegally. The original farmer is forced into debt for “stealing” and usually ends up losing land.

LIFTICVSMAXIMVS: In terms of quality of life, producing less food – i.e., organic and free range farming – does not lead to better quality food, per se. It just leads to less food that is more expensive.

eightprops: I’d say it’s a little more complicated than that. Not to say you don’t have any valid points. Just that there are always more sides to the story.

I’d suggest reading Guns, Germs, and Steel for starters on how developing nations/industrialized nations came to be, and how this has influenced modern day agriculture.

Again, I’m not saying you don’t have any valid points, just that it’s a bit over-simplified to say that “organic and free range is the equivalent of poverty.”

[quote]miroku333 wrote:
I don’t give a shit about whether food is organic or not, btw.
so mass-produced cruelty free food is fine with me.

[/quote]

You wanna talk about cruelty…lets talk about what would happen to cows if we weren’t killing them. Have you ever seen a cow? They’re really dumb animals. Do you honestly think that the modern domesticated cow would survive without human intervention?

You ever watch the discovery channel? Now THAT’S cruel. We’re doing the poor bastards a favor with the one-and-done in a dark room that they’re getting now…

Cruel is an entirely relative term. To a 5 year old, what people do to cows is cruel, but compared to what would be happening if a cougar or panther got a hold of those cows, what people do is pretty fucking humane. If you are really concerned about the best interests of animals, make sure that the meat you are consuming is coming from animals that are being raised and slaughtered humanely.

Go ahead and keep chomping down your alfalfa-soy patties though, your position of moral superiority does little, in reality, to keep those poor defenseless animals from being eaten by something.

[quote]eightprops wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
eightprops wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
In fact, organic and free range is the equivalent of poverty.

What does this even mean?

LIFTICVSMAXIMVS: It means that poor people would starve if all farmers were to switch to organic and free range farming only.

eightprops: So, industrial style farming is the reason poor people aren’t starving today? [/quote]

It is the reason why more people can afford to eat more food and the reason why there are no starving people in industrialized nations like the US.

[quote]
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS: Organic food might get cheaper but regular food would become more expensive.

eightprops: Regular means chemically and/or genetically altered?[/quote]

Regular means cheaper and not all the hokey, organic BS marketing.

[quote]

LIFTICVSMAXIMVS: People in developing nations farm organically because all the western technologies are too expensive to them. As a result they do not produce enough food.

eightprops: In reality, western nations sell their surplus grains/produce to developing nations, undermining the local farmers/producers. This usually leads to the downfall of local agriculture and the rise of further dependence upon industrialized nations. The Jamaican dairy industry is a perfect model of how this works.[/quote]

Undermining? Does the US undermine Japanese farmers by selling the Japanese food they cannot grow themselves? Usually if low scale agriculture cannot compete it is because they don’t produce enough. It is not a bad thing when they get put out of business so that they can redirect their labor to new and more productive activities. You would have the government destroy the “surplus” food so as not the “undermine” unproductive farmers that live in other poor nations? Even giving it away would still put the under-producing farmers out of business. Better to trade with them, I say.

[quote]
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS: They live in poverty and they don’t consider what they are doing to be “environmentally friendly” living. They want chemical fertilizers and bio-engineered seeds to put food in their bellies.

eightprops: In reality, these bio-engineered crops render non-altered crops sterile when they cross polinate. The bio-engineering companies essentially destroy adjacent plots of “organic” land and then claim their patented products are being grown illegally. The original farmer is forced into debt for “stealing” and usually ends up losing land. [/quote]

Well this a political problem not an explicit farming problem; one that I agree with you about. This happens because of government protectionism and regulation. Only the super-rich and politically connected farmers benefit from regulation leaving all the poor subsistence farmers scratching at dirt patches. It does hurt family farming in the long run. The only solution is to outlaw political lobbying so that there is always a level playing field.

See, the thing is I don’t have a problem with organic farming, per se. I have a problem with the uneducated liberals not realizing there is a trade off to be made between industrialization and eco-friendly farming. This was already mentioned before.

“Gun’s, Germs, and Steel” is a flawed book. Industrialized nations came to be for the simple fact that capitalism was able to take root in the Christianized world; whereas the rest of the world still, for the most part, holds fast to their quaint communal belief systems. Trading always makes people better off which is why I laugh at some of the economically ignorant things I was “forced” to respond to in your post.