T Nation

Vatican Supports Evolution


Hopefully the last thread on evolution and church...:


Evolution in the bible, says Vatican
By Martin Penner

November 07, 2005

THE Vatican has issued a stout defence of Charles Darwin, voicing strong criticism of Christian fundamentalists who reject his theory of evolution and interpret the biblical account of creation literally.
Cardinal Paul Poupard, head of the Pontifical Council for Culture, said the Genesis description of how God created the universe and Darwin's theory of evolution were "perfectly compatible" if the Bible were read correctly.

His statement was a clear attack on creationist campaigners in the US, who see evolution and the Genesis account as mutually exclusive.

"The fundamentalists want to give a scientific meaning to words that had no scientific aim," he said at a Vatican press conference. He said the real message in Genesis was that "the universe didn't make itself and had a creator".

This idea was part of theology, Cardinal Poupard emphasised, while the precise details of how creation and the development of the species came about belonged to a different realm - science. Cardinal Poupard said that it was important for Catholic believers to know how science saw things so as to "understand things better".

His statements were interpreted in Italy as a rejection of the "intelligent design" view, which says the universe is so complex that some higher being must have designed every detail.


Just read about the decision on CNN and didn't want to start a new thread. Reading the Vatican's opinion and reading CNN disturbs me:

More specifically;
"In addition, the board rewrote the definition of science, so that it is no longer limited to the search for natural explanations of phenomena."

If this isn't ass-backwards, I don't know what is.

Let's see, the White Sox and Red Sox win back-to-back Worlds Series, the KANSAS State Board of Education is redefining science, the Catholic Church supports evolution, the U.S. is trapped in another "quagmire", and "Chicken Little" is the number one movie at the box office. Is anybody else reading these tea leaves? I figure the Cubs win the WS next year, Arni wins the presidential race, and then the world ends. Excuse me, I'm gonna go cancel my insurance.


"Intelligent design holds that the universe is so complex that it must have been created by a higher power."
-wholly inaccurate.

"In 1999, the board eliminated most references to evolution, a move Harvard paleontologist Stephen Jay Gould said was akin to teaching "American history without Lincoln." "
-logical fallacy, appeal to authority.

"Many scientists and other critics contend creationists repackaged old ideas in scientific-sounding language to get around a U.S. Supreme Court decision in 1987 that banned teaching the biblical story of creation in public schools."
-same fallacy

ugh. thats all i can say.

lucosa, your icon says "no bad science" but you avidly support evolution- which is bad science. cant be verified via scientific method, and is therefore nothing more than a theory, but you and others tout it as immutable fact.

ok, I said more than ugh. but ugh is still the main comment.


and to comment on the vatican - the catholic church is as much (if not more so) political as it is religous. it needs members to survive, so it changes itself w/ popular views. the catholic church has been a political body since the middle ages... and just like politicians, it changes w/ popular opinion. it needs members to survive and make money, so it does what it needs to in order to appeal to the largest mass- which in this case is agree w/ (incorrect) mainstream scientific ideals. so I guess you could say 'science' is the opiate of the masses, now.


I'm speechless.


Hence the expression "Theory of Evolution", which is, unlike creationism, at least based on some facts.



This is old news.

Catholic schools have been teaching evolution since always, and had never included anything related to creationism in their teaching.

If you ask any catholic priest about evolution and genesis (specially Jesuit priests, which are very pro-science), he will answer that evolution explains the origin of man and all species, and that genesis is a metaphor with very deep and important theological meaning.

Again this is old news, older than most people in this website, literally.

Of course, many protestants think that catholics are devil-worshipers, so this won't change anything in U.S.A. Sadly, other states will follow Kansas path, and start teaching non-science instead of real science in biology.


Great post!


its taught as fact in a lot of cases- i was in a few. and it is taught as the only viable option in a lot of others- even though it isnt.

and the theory of ID is indeed based on as much solid science as the theory of evolution. such has been discussed ad nausium.


thank you for supporting my point. evolutionary theorists dont follow scientific method, but it is somehow considered 'real science.'

again, ad nausium about biological support (still not true, sound science because it can never be validated via scientific method) for the theory of ID. so why is it bad science and something similarly lacking in scientific method good science?


You're right, we should disregard all science and put our complete faith in a 2000 year old book, cause that's so much more logical.


That is false. Please educate yourself in the scientific method and evolutionary theory before posting such nonsense.

(I know you won't waste a single minute educating yourself about evolution, like any other creationist and that I'm wasting my time with this post, but it is my duty to say it).


Science brought us the television... down with science!


And putting your faith in a system that can't be proven by the scientific method, while pretending it can, is logical?

Let's be real shall we.

DA MAN, you are Da Man!


It's not Sunday yet, can the Jesus freaks go bible thumping somewhere else for a while?



This part is true.

This part couldn't be more false. If the Vatican listened to public opinion, we would have married priests, female priests, and birth control would not be considered a "sin." The Second Vatican Council was the first time that the church decided to make itself a little more user friendly, and that wasn't until the 1960s. If you are going to argue, you need to get your facts straight.


At one time the Vatican proclaimed the earth was flat...


Take heart, ramses... Kansas folks aren't as backwards as we all thought. Those school board members who voted for ID in science classes -- every single one of them -- are now looking for new jobs:


That's right. They are going to teach ID in an elective comparative religion class, not in science class.

Score one for reason and science. Back to your caves, fundies. Sell your crappy belief system somewhere else. :stuck_out_tongue:


And no offense, DA MAN, but ID is nothing even close to a scientific thing. We've had several threads right here on T-Nation about just that. Maybe you missed them.


where's pookie?